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TURBO vs N.A

Hell101

By Hell101,
in Performance and Tuning

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Zrun

Zrun

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This is for 1zz-fe 1.8 DOHC vvti... The 1.8 liter versions of Corolla Altis, celica, MRS, Matrix(US only).

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Attitude wise you can be a real MOFO you know that?? If you don't want to answer something don't! It also doesn't hurt to be kinder to others (me excluded) regardless of popularity.

 

What's a mofo? You care to explain that?

 

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We both should know that AFR's are not set. They vary according to the fuel maps. Initially we both were wrong in using a single AFR only. If you havent realised it by now, I handle mostly TC'ed cars tuned for performance, and on WOT I have never known of any of these that runs reliably on a ratio of over 12.1:1 on WOT. Anything leaner is dangerously lean in a TC car,

 

You've handled "mostly TC'ed cars tuned for performance". So? Is that an experience that is uniquely yours? You've never run a car reliably on a ratio of over 12.1:1 on WOT? How can you say you've got a lot of experience then? If I can show you a car that runs 1.5 bar boost on 12.5:1 AFR and it runs reliably, will you shut up?

 

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Even factory standard cars running low boost on WOT have similar ratios.

 

Funny you should bring up this point. Let me ask you then, if you're running this ratio, then why bother tuning the car? If your "tuning experience" is telling you to deliver the same amount of fuel as what the car is getting from the factory, then what difference is there? Might as well just leave the car stock.

 

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When i mention rich and lean, it is in relation to that particular point as most mechanics do (as opposed to engineers) as it would be easier for the layman to understand.

 

How is it easier for the layman to understand when you've been maintaining that running lean leads to lower emissions? What you're doing is the opposite, confusing the hell out of the layman.

 

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When it comes to this, I've had a bit of learning to do initially but i always try and play it safe for the engine as the power loss from running that little bit richer is less than the power gained from increasing boost and advancing the timing.

 

See what I mean? Can someone else explain to me what the hell you're trying to say?

 

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As for the plugs, silver is the best for a good spark, followed by copper. Unfortunately I can't find a silver plug that isnt meant for race purposes here. Do your research, and you'll find that tests do prove that. Try google if you like, theres so much other stuff, but you'll be able to find the comparisons.

 

Back-pedaling again I see. I thought you tuned for "high performance", so why use copper when silver is "meant for race purposes"?

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Elfenstar

Elfenstar

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(edited)

Section 1) MOFO>> find out yourself :) you won't like it

 

Section 2) Car to show me>> I might depends, show it first (more importantly does it use pump fuel).

 

Section 3) In the cars i work on you obviously don't adjust the fuel ratios only. They're adjusted together with other mods or adjustments to timing etc... Grocery getter cars having timing maps and AFR maps more suited for economy, thats why you tune them, on the cars i work on, there would be minimal power gains from a tune unless serious mods have been done. The cars i work on are not grocery getters.

 

Section 4) Haven't you realised what lean is in regards to my said ratios???

 

Section 5) It means I would rather increase the boost more, or advance the timeing a little (both within limits obviously) than run slightly leaner mixtures as the power gain would be better and the engine less likely to end up with a cracked piston.

 

Section 6) Perhaps its because the silver race plugs wouldnt last 5000km???? Did i mention about the cost-benefit difference between the 2???

 

Stop being a textbook mechanic. There are few tuning workshops in singapore that handle cars with mods even remotely close to what I've touched, and even those that do have not come up with cars with as much power reliably.

 

All the cars that you've mentioned are what you've read about without looking into other aspects of the build. You make it seem as if every aspect of the engine works on its own while in reality there are other related issues (not forgetting external factors). Do you know why most preformance cars don't go past 12.6:1??? Do you know why its usually less too??? If you can give me a satisfactory answer it might prove that you have some useful knowledge yet.

Edited by Elfenstar
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Elfenstar

Elfenstar

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(edited)

I also found this

 

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If a combustion system is operated exactly on ratio, there's a chance some of the oxygen in the combustion air won't get paired up with the fuel it's supposed to burn. In addition, as the ratio approaches stoichiometric, the temperature in the flame envelope rises rapidly, and at these high temperatures, a sort of reverse combustion, called dissociation, occurs. Combustion products like carbon dioxide and water vapor begin to break down in the intense heat, reverting to hydrogen and carbon monoxide. Adding a little excess air to the mix lowers the flame temperature enough to slow dissociation to a crawl.

 

which would explain why running leaner (as in a larger air ratio to fuel over stoich levels) would result in lower emmissions.

Edited by Elfenstar
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Section 1) MOFO>> find out yourself :) you won't like it

 

Come on, why don't you come out and say it? Come on, call me more names. Show everyone here that when you can't convince, curse. Then again, it's right in your character to say things without understanding the meaning. Right? Why don't you come out and explain to all of us what "mofo" means then?

 

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Section 2) Car to show me>> I might depends, show it first (more importantly does it use pump fuel).

 

Of course it uses pump fuel. Why should I teach you how to tune?

 

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Section 3) In the cars i work on you obviously don't adjust the fuel ratios only. They're adjusted together with other mods or adjustments to timing etc... Grocery getter cars having timing maps and AFR maps more suited for economy, thats why you tune them, on the cars i work on, there would be minimal power gains from a tune unless serious mods have been done. The cars i work on are not grocery getters.

 

Text is cheap, anyone can type BS, just like you've been doing all this while. You must also be psychic since you're able to see from Australia that all the cars I tuned are "grocery getters" while yours are "high performance".

 

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Section 4) Haven't you realised what lean is in regards to my said ratios???

 

No, because you never answered the question. I doubt anyone here understood what you meant either.

 

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Section 5) It means I would rather increase the boost more, or advance the timeing a little (both within limits obviously) than run slightly leaner mixtures as the power gain would be better and the engine less likely to end up with a cracked piston.

 

From this statement alone, it's obvious you have no business tuning an engine.

 

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Section 6) Perhaps its because the silver race plugs wouldnt last 5000km???? Did i mention about the cost-benefit difference between the 2???

 

But you said you changed copper plugs every 5000 km, which is the same as the silver plugs. So what's the difference? I thought you tuned "high performance" vehicles, what's a plug change every 5000 km right?

 

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Stop being a textbook mechanic. There are few tuning workshops in singapore that handle cars with mods even remotely close to what I've touched, and even those that do have not come up with cars with as much power reliably.

 

Oh, so just because you say I'm a "textbook mechanic", that means I'm one? And just because you keep repeating that you work on "high performance" vehicles, makes you a "tuner"? Pathetic.

 

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All the cars that you've mentioned are what you've read about without looking into other aspects of the build.

 

Yes, Mr Psychic, all the cars I've read about, I haven't worked on any of those said cars. Well done, now leave us and get back to work on the Psychic Hotline.

 

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You make it seem as if every aspect of the engine works on its own while in reality there are other related issues (not forgetting external factors).

 

I have never done this while you're the one who keeps changing the topic.

 

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Do you know why most preformance cars don't go past 12.6:1??? Do you know why its usually less too??? If you can give me a satisfactory answer it might prove that you have some useful knowledge yet.

 

Go past 12.6 in which direction? Leaner or richer? I'm not going to be baited to teach someone who has no business working on engines in any case.

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Mr Psychic, stop. Just stop. You're posting stuff you do not understand. Read what you quoted carefully. It's still called the stoichiometric ratio for a reason.

 

If you hook up an oscilloscope to the factory narrowband sensor, you will see the voltage reading to be sinusoidal in shape, and not precisely stoichiometric (totally flat line).

 

Thank you for providing further proof that you don't know what you're doing.

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Elfenstar

Elfenstar

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*Sigh* you twist and try and turn everyhting your way. I called you a MOFO in regards to your attitude, nothing more.... and you're proving yourself to be an even bigger one that what i had thought.

 

At 5000kms, the silver plugs are past their optimum by a fair bit. I'm looking into the silver coated copper core ones, but we're still testing.

 

Why not leaner than 12.6:1 in performance cars (on WOT). Why usually richer. I know the reasons, I'm just asking you if you know the reasons. If you are just afraid that what i'll do is wait for your reply and try and shoot it down like you've been doing, don't worry I won't.

 

Abt the bit i quoted, basically what i'm trying to say is that emissions will drop and keep dropping (even after stoic) as you get leaner until it hits a ratio of 22:1 in petrol engines. Thereafter, the benefits of adding the excess air will be gone.

 

Like you said, stoich is checmically idea, however you should know that at 14.7:1, there are still emissions when there should not be any. Even if you're using a wideband sensor, there are still sine-waves and not a flat line at stoich. The closest you can get to a flat line with petrol combustion is at a ratio of 22:1 when the sine-waves are at their lowest frequency and amplitude.

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*Sigh* you twist and try and turn everyhting your way. I called you a MOFO in regards to your attitude, nothing more.... and you're proving yourself to be an even bigger one that what i had thought.

 

Come now, explain to us, what does "mofo" mean? You mean you can't even answer this question?

 

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At 5000kms, the silver plugs are past their optimum by a fair bit. I'm looking into the silver coated copper core ones, but we're still testing.

 

Once again, not answering the question. Why use copper if silver is better (as you so claim) and both need to be changed at 5000 km anyway?

 

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Why not leaner than 12.6:1 in performance cars (on WOT). Why usually richer. I know the reasons, I'm just asking you if you know the reasons. If you are just afraid that what i'll do is wait for your reply and try and shoot it down like you've been doing, don't worry I won't.

 

Why should I bother to try to explain to you when it's obvious you do not understand?

 

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Abt the bit i quoted, basically what i'm trying to say is that emissions will drop and keep dropping (even after stoic) as you get leaner until it hits a ratio of 22:1 in petrol engines. Thereafter, the benefits of adding the excess air will be gone.

 

Totally wrong. If what you say is true, then cars will be aiming for your so-called 22:1 AFR at idle.

 

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Like you said, stoich is checmically idea, however you should know that at 14.7:1, there are still emissions when there should not be any.

 

Oh boy, you are one confused psychic. I never said there would be NO emissions. And it's obvious that you STILL do not understand what stoichiometric means.

 

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Even if you're using a wideband sensor, there are still sine-waves and not a flat line at stoich. The closest you can get to a flat line with petrol combustion is at a ratio of 22:1 when the sine-waves are at their lowest frequency and amplitude.

 

Never mind, you never got the point.

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Elfenstar

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Come now, explain to us, what does "mofo" mean? You mean you can't even answer this question?

you seem to know what it means, so i don't see the need to.

incase you don't, this might help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoFo

 

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Why should I bother to try to explain to you when it's obvious you do not understand?

Looks like I'll have to explain it. Its 12.6 because that gives the best power. The reason its usually lower is because of the safety margine in case the vehicle gets a bad batch of fuel, etc.

 

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Once again, not answering the question. Why use copper if silver is better (as you so claim) and both need to be changed at 5000 km anyway?

Silver plugs run at an optimum up till approx 1000km. Copper plugs run at an optimium till approx 5000kms. Silver can be used up to approx 5000km while copper can be used up to approx 10000km, but they would both be past their optimum (these distances are in relation to TC engines). We want the cars to run at the optimum all the time, not for just the first 1000kms. (Would you like the figures for the platinum and iridium plugs as well?) Silver, copper, gold, platinum, irridium plugs in this order are the best for a good spark and in reverse for durability. Bosch informs me that the copper core-silver plated plugs will have the optimum durability equal to that of a copper plug, but with a spark inbetween the copper and silver.

 

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Totally wrong. If what you say is true, then cars will be aiming for your so-called 22:1 AFR at idle.

You can't run cars at such a lean mixture as they will be having severe early detonation problems, even during idle. Just because it would give better emissions, it doesnt mean it is achieveable in a car due to other factors involved. Btw, for the 22:1 ratio, I didn't test it etc, I did my research (in a library) and this is what multiple tests have reported. Same thing with the rest of the info in this post. Oh btw, I admit, I was wrong, most modern grocery getters do run approx 15:1 on part throttle. Thank you for correcting me on that.

 

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Oh boy, you are one confused psychic. I never said there would be NO emissions. And it's obvious that you STILL do not understand what stoichiometric means.

My bad, you did not say that. However you did imply that it would have the least emissions which is still wrong. I initially thought that you were right on this one, but the reports and tests say otherwise. Btw, I don't think i fully understand what stoichiometeric means (other than every molecule of the combustible item and air/oxygen will mix/be involved in a chemical reaction). Could you kindly inform me so i may learn.

 

Edit: I forgot to mention, the copper plugs i use do not have nickel plated elctrodes with copper cores. The electrode is full copper.

Edited by Elfenstar
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Vtim

Vtim

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Both corner or straight also fun. Corner got "anti-lag" mah ... pop pop pop ... lots of fire work thumbsup.gif

 

Yes, you don't know what you have missed out in life until you kena the stroke on the back of that turbo kick ass feeling ... weeeee ... sly.gif

I kanna the stroke on your STi and also a friend's 156 GTA, both also got kick ass feeling man thumbsup.gifthumbsup.gifthumbsup.gif too bad me $$$ not enough, my ride should be ready by next Mon or Tue sweatdrop.gifsweatdrop.gifsweatdrop.gif

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Sheltie2306

Sheltie2306

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(edited)

Ya, my pocket deep until punch through already [laugh]

I never strike TOTO, 4D or BIG SWEEP, and we are colleague doing about the same kind of job, how can I have deep pocket right? But I just turbo charged my pocket only [sly][sly]

Edited by Sheltie2306
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