TURBO vs N.A

[Hell101]

not in the turbo league yet.

but need brothers here to enlighten me.

lets say, comparing engine of same capacity, 1800cc

what'e the different between a turbo-charged one and the normal one in-terms of fuel consumptions?

[BMW320i]

TC 1.8L more

 

NA 1.8 less.

 

Obviously ...

 

But there isn't a formula to give you a definite FC.

[Hell101]

can share the technical aspects?

why? is it bcos of more fuel is injected?

[Cheeze]

not to mention that some TC cars require higher grade of petrol eg min RON98...

[Soya]

more dense fuel and air mixture is forced-fed by the turbocharger. hence, more explosive combustion = more power.

[Hell101]

but when we say turbo will only step in after certain time. isn't that mean an 1.8 will drink like a normal 1.8 if u don't engage turbo? is that possible?

[Soya]

turbos require spooling up to reach boost levels. b4 boost kicks in, an equivlent NA 1.8 is actually nippier as TC cars run on lower compression, hence the lag. it's not a simple case of same 1.8L engine, one wif turbo and one no turbo, so no turbo means better FC as it's almost impossible to drive ard in a TC car everywhere without engaging the boost. boost levels vary according to throttle position and the way the throttle is engaged. the same throttle position applied gradually vs a sudden stab can yield different boost levels.

[BMW320i]

Copied from http://www.turbonation.com/turbo.htm

 

A turbo charger is basically a device that uses exhaust gasses produced by the engine to blow air back into the engine. The additional air is supplemented with fuel by the ECU (engine control unit). This causes the engine to produce much more power since it is being supplied with more air and fuel than it possibly could without it. A naturally aspirated engine (non-turbo, standard engine), or "N/A" engine, has to "suck" air through the intake manifolds, throttle body, air filter, etc. With this setup, the most air pressure that can enter the combustion chamber of the engine is a bit less than the current atmospheric pressure. With the turbo, air is being blown into the chamber with positive pressure so that much more air and fuel can enter. A typical turbo charged engine will generate 7 to 10 psi of maximum positive pressure, or "boost". The turbo charger, or "turbo", is mounted directly to the exhaust manifold, where exhaust gasses pass over a turbine impeller that is attached to a short shaft. On the other side of this shaft is a compressor turbine, which pulls outside air in through the air filter and blows it into the intake manifold. So basically, the energy from the expelled exhaust gasses, which would normally be wasted on a N/A engine, is being used to pump air back into the engine.

The shaft is supported by a bearing housing that is lubricated and cooled by an oil line from the engine. Since engine exhaust has such high temperatures, the exhaust side of the turbo can reach thousands of degrees F. This is why it is so critical that the engine oil be changed religiously (every 3,000 miles), because old oil can burn and leave deposits in oil lines and housings, called "coke". Coking can be virtually eliminated by using a synthetic oil and changing it frequently (every 6,000 miles). Some turbos feature an additional passage for a coolant line, to keep the bearing housing cool. This did little to keep temperatures down while running, but it had a huge effect after the engine was shut off. Without the coolant passage, the oil would drain when the engine was shut off and the turbo bearing housing would reach incredibly high temperatures from the heat transferring out of the exhaust manifold. This took its toll on the life of the bearings. The presence of the water keeps the housing cool.

 

When the engine has been idling or at low speed for a while, the turbo is not spinning or is spinning very slowly because there is very little exhaust leaving the engine. When the throttle is opened, the engine produces more exhaust, which spins the turbo faster. A faster spinning turbo means more air and fuel is being blown into the engine, therefore even more exhaust is being produced, which makes the turbo spin even faster and so on. This cycle is known as turbo "spool-up", which feels like a sudden surge in engine power and appears on your boost gauge as a sudden increase in pressure. The time before the surge, when the turbo is spooling up but the engine doesn't have much power yet, is called turbo lag. A large turbo charger can produce more air flow and pressure, but will have more lag because of its increased size. A small turbo charger will have a smaller amount of lag, but will not be able to move as much air. This is explained in more detail is the sections below.

 

How Turbines Are Designed

The exhaust turbine's job is to convert the energy in the moving and expanding exhaust gasses into rotating kinetic energy of the shaft and turbines. The compressor turbine's job is to convert that rotating energy into the movement of the air that enters the engine. This air is compressed and (unfortunately) heated. The turbines in a turbo charger are measured by the sizes of each stage of the turbine. A turbine has two stages: the inducer stage and the exducer stage. The size and shape of each stage determines the shape of the turbine's fins and ultimately the characteristics of that turbine.

For the compressor turbine (or "compressor wheel"), the inducer part of of turbine is at the end of the shaft and can be seen by looking into the intake of the turbo compressor housing (looks like a fan). The blades that you see there extend into a larger diameter at the other end of the turbine. This is the exducer stage. The inducer on the compressor turbine is responsible for generating the vacuum at the compressor housing inlet that pulls air into the compressor. The air then "rides" the fins towards the exducer stage, which is a larger diameter, and gets sling-shot towards the outside of the compressor housing. The housing collects this moving air an expels it through the housing's outlet. The way that the air leaves the fins causes it to swirl as it leaves the housing. Since the intake manifolds on the early Turbo I engines were so close to the turbo, an anti-swirl fin had to be installed in the turbo outlet duct to stop this air motion from effecting the flow characteristics of the intake manifold.

 

The exhaust turbine also has an inducer and exducer, but because the exhaust turbine has the opposite function of the compressor turbine, the two are switched. The exhaust gasses are directed towards the outside of turbine through a nozzle. This is the inducer stage because it is the part of the turbine that collects the gasses. As the energy from the gasses is transferred into the turbine, the gasses slow down and exit the turbine through the exducer stage.

 

turbo charger Buzz Words

There are several factors that determine the performance of a turbo charger. The three most important ones are the type of exhaust turbine, the A/R ratio of the exhaust housing, and the size of the compressor turbine. Usually, it seems that the exhaust turbine is just referred to as the "turbine" and the compressor turbine is referred to as the "compressor wheel".

The Exhaust Turbine

The exhaust turbine design is a balance between absorbing as much energy from the exhaust gasses as possible and allowing the gasses to flow as easily as possible. This is closely related to the size of the exhaust housing. A larger turbine can absorb more energy from the gasses and spin the shaft with more torque and speed, but too large a turbine will restrict the flow of exhaust such that engine performance is greatly reduced. Typically, the inducer is only slightly larger than the exducer on the exhaust turbine. Generally, you would want to stick with the stock turbine because it's size is not nearly as important as the compressor turbine's size. If you want to reduce restriction through a smaller housing, you can have the turbine "clipped", which reduces the size of the fins and allows more air to flow around the turbine.

The Turbine Housings

The exhaust and compressor housings on turbo chargers use a "scroll" design. For example, the exhaust housing's scroll is where the exhaust gasses enter the housing and are directed at the turbine. It's basically a smooth, tubular chamber that surrounds the turbine with a slot all the way around that acts as a nozzle to direct the exhaust gasses at the turbine. It's called a scroll because it slowly gets smaller in diameter as a goes around the turbine. This pressurizes the gasses, forcing them out of the slot/nozzle at a fast rate. In turbo-terms, the scroll is measured by the cross-sectional area of the scroll's "tube" (A) and the distance from the center of the "tube" to the turbine shaft ®. The values by themselves are not meaningful to the user and for the most part, R does not change much for different housings, but by dividing R into A, you get the A/R ratio. So, the A/R ratio of the exhaust housing refers to the size and shape of the scroll that is cast into the housing. It basically determines how restrictive the housing will be, versus how quickly the turbine will spin up. A lower A/R ratio (smaller scroll area, A) results in a more restrictive housing. This restriction speeds up the exhaust gasses and increases the amount that the gasses will expand. It's the speed and expansion of the gasses that causes the turbine to spin. So with a low A/R ratio, the turbine will spin up quicker, but as engine output and rpms increase, the restriction of the housing begins to build up too much back pressure on the engine, which reduces performance. A good rule of thumb for when there is too much back pressure is when the pressure in the exhaust manifold is more the half of the pressure in the cylinder. So basically, a larger A/R ratio will improve your engine's top end, while losing some mid range power and increasing turbo lag. A smaller A/R ratio will help the bottom and mid-range, but may effect the top end.

On the compressor side, the housing also features a scroll design, but it has the opposite function. The air leaving the compressor turbine has a lot of speed, but not much pressure. The scroll on the compressor housing starts small and gets larger as it approaches the compressor outlet. This collects the air and builds up air pressure. So, the compressor housing is designed to convert the speed-energy of the air coming off of the compressor turbine into pressure-energy, which is much more useful to an engine.

 

The Compressor Turbine

The size of the compressor turbine determines the maximum amount of boost that the turbo charger can produce. It also effects the spool-up time of the turbo. The type of compressor wheel is usually designated as its "trim", which is a value that describes the inducer and exducer sizes. Typically, the exducer is significantly larger than the inducer on a compressor turbine.

So in conclusion, a turbo charger's design becomes a balancing act between these three factors.

 

How Boost Is Controlled

The amount of boost produced by the turbo is controlled with another device called a waste gate. The waste gate is a large valve that sits at the exhaust inlet to the turbo that, when opened, causes the exhaust gasses to bypass the exhaust turbine instead of through it. The further the waste gate is opened, the more exhaust is bypassed and less boost is produced. A spring in the actuator closes the waste gate (by pulling on the rod). The back-side of the actuator diaphragm is connected to the intake manifold. As pressure builds up in the manifold, the actuator rod pushes out and the waste gate opens. This pressure is bled off by a solenoid that is modulated (switched on and off quickly) by the logic module. The longer the duty cycle (amount of time it spends turned on) of the solenoid, the higher the boost pressure that is produced. There were two different configurations used to accomplish this, depending which turbo charger was installed on the vehicle. The function of both is the same and the only real difference is where the manifold pressure comes from.

 

So just remember, when it comes to turbo chargers, size DOES matter !!!!

[Elfenstar]

Damn my fav topic but everything has already been covered...

[Sheltie2306]

Simply go for turbo, you will never regret

[Guniang]

depends also on u wanna corner or straight... but the pull from turbo is shiok

[Sheltie2306]

Both corner or straight also fun. Corner got "anti-lag" mah ... pop pop pop ... lots of fire work

 

Yes, you don't know what you have missed out in life until you kena the stroke on the back of that turbo kick ass feeling ... weeeee ...

[Zrun]

Turbo or no turbo is not just about good and bad FC. (if you are considering NA to FI conversion)

 

There's added costs of higher FC, the need for highest RON fuel, and reliability of engine/setup. The costs of getting a usable versus good/reliable setup can be very different.

 

Regarding fuel consumption, I think for the same exact engine, turbo vs non turbo, turbo will have maybe 10-20% higher FC.

 

Also, if you drive turbo conservatively, you'll have better mileage than redlining NA engine all the time. People with turbo says that after getting turbo, their need for acceleration is satisfied, since they know that crazy power is always there(>4k), there's no need to push the car as much as before. These people always claim that FI gives them better mileage.

[Liuhao]

engine oil change every 3000km...means every two months. very troublesome...

[Falc]

True true ... No wonder i see many wrx strolling in the middle lane.

 

But I think it is fairer to compare the FC of two cars of the same HP, one turbocharging, the other NA. The question then becomes if it is more efficient to inc engine cc for HP or turbocharging, cost of manufacturing aside.

 

Another factor is that turbocharging recycles the exhaust waste gas to do some useful work, and that should go somewhat to helping it been more efficient than NA? But i'm not a mechanical engineer to stake my bet on it.

[Falc]

Not true for all makes leh. Eg. the recommended VW 1.8T OCI is 15000km! Maybe applies to stock only, and stock has low HP rating.

[Soya]

3000 km servicing?? dun anyhow scare ppl leh.

 

Even the 300bhp S60R service intervals are 15,000km.

[Liuhao]

sorry i mean 3000 miles which means 4500km. right? it's not said me...

 

"...the exhaust side of the turbo can reach thousands of degrees F. This is why it is so critical that the engine oil be changed religiously (every 3,000 miles), because old oil can burn and leave deposits in oil lines and housings..."

 

no i dun wanna scare ppl. i got scared instead, bcos i am intenting to get LGT which is a tc car. i am evaluating the service cost these days.