Education getting softer in Singapore and the GEP

[Throttle2]

  On 1/7/2023 at 1:46 PM, Wind30 said:

I am actually not scholar. I work private sector all my life. 
Not everything must compete but I actually think we have skewed too far in the other direction. 
What is wrong with just giving a median grade? Just to know which subjects she is doing ok and which subjects she need to improve. I thought that is literally the most basic form of feedback.

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Nothings wrong in giving a median grade. Likewise without. 
 

if she had done 70 marks,  without median reference, still have to improve right?  If done 80, 90 or even 100, still have to continue to improve right?

so if median is now 60 and she score 70, no need to work on improving already, is it?

the race is against yourself. No one else lah. 
10 marks got to improve, 50 marks got to improve, 90 marks also got to improve.  Isnt it?

what has it got to do with soft or not, i cant quite understand.  
 

machiam insurance agent selling policy each month show everyone how much premium each one close, who is ahead, who is behind, who is going to get sacked.  Like that than is not soft? 😁😎

[Sosaria]

  On 1/7/2023 at 12:17 PM, Wind30 said:

I just saw my daughter sec 2 report card and I find our education system getting quite ridiculous.

When I was in sec 2, my report card comes with the average, highest and even lowest score so you know where you stand. 

As you can see, different subjects has very different mean score. A score of 62 in literature is average but pretty bad for geography as exams are all different. I am surprised they even give the lowest score, just to rub it in on the poor kid I guess.

When my daughter was in sec 1 last year, the school only gave out the median score which is ok I guess. Although it is nice to have the highest for something to aim, I am ok with just the median so I know how my daughter is doing.

This year, they even removed the median score. how am I supposed to  know how my daughter is doing in her exams? 

I really think this "grades are useless" thing has gone waaaay too far. My son just completed Pri1 and 2 and I totally have no idea how he is doing in school because there is no exams.My daughter just finished sec2 and she have a bunch of grades but no median score so I have totally no idea how good/bad she is doing....

Are all schools like that? removing the median score so nobody has any benchmark?

 

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No choice mah. GEP only 1% or 2%? I can't remember what figure was thrown out at that MOE briefing they made every parent sit through when the kids make it into this scheme. Policies have to be made for the mainstream; no choice GEP as a small minority must follow.

They have to make the general population happy that their children are going places and getting that all important piece of paper. Almost everyone can make it to tertiary education. More through-train schemes so that more can avoid the benchmark national exams. The academically stronger students have through-train scheme in the 6-year IP programmes, while the academically weaker students also have through-train schemes in the poly foundation programmes. Sooner or later, the national exams will be made obsolete when there is no longer much demand.

The real test of how good the education system is will be decided by the employers. They are the ones evaluating the products of the system; the real benchmark test. Are the products up to standard?

I get what you mean by "soft" - as I too feel that some policies these days, not specific to education, are a little too "woke" and seemingly for political correctness, but then that's how the world goes now.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Sosaria

[Wind30]

  On 1/7/2023 at 1:54 PM, Throttle2 said:

Nothings wrong in giving a median grade. Likewise without. 
 

if she had done 70 marks,  without median reference, still have to improve right?  If done 80, 90 or even 100, still have to continue to improve right?

so if median is now 60 and she score 70, no need to work on improving already, is it?

the race is against yourself. No one else lah. 
10 marks got to improve, 50 marks got to improve, 90 marks also got to improve.  Isnt it?

what has it got to do with soft or not, i cant quite understand.  
 

machiam insurance agent selling policy each month show everyone how much premium each one close, who is ahead, who is behind, who is going to get sacked.  Like that than is not soft? 😁😎

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for me it’s different. I let her auto pilot for her sec1 sec2 years. If her grades is above median I am happy. She can do whatever she wants. If she is below median, I want to know so I can help her improve if needed. 

if she is well above median, no need to improve. Just continue doing whatever she is doing. Why the added pressure to improve?

edit: I kind of see what you are saying but this kind of continuous endless self improvement is tiring, at least to me. If the kid or parent have this mindset, I agree u don’t need an external benchmark but like I say, it’s very tiring…

Edited January 7, 2023 by Wind30

[Stary]

  On 1/7/2023 at 1:50 PM, Macrosszero said:

I know a guy who needs to know how much other people are earning, how many months bonus they got, where they’re living, how many properties they have, what cars they’re driving, just to compare how well they are doing……it’s truly tiring to be around him. 

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I eat cai png with 2 veg, and sometimes eat 2 slices of bread with nutella/marmite. Infact, I just bought a fresh loaf of bread for tomorrow lunch.

If anyone wanna feel good, please compare with me. Everyone will feel like a rockstar! 😛

Edited January 7, 2023 by Starry

[Benarsenal]

No need to study so hard lah. Nowadays just do TikTok, can huat already.

[Sosaria]

  On 1/7/2023 at 2:53 PM, Benarsenal said:

No need to study so hard lah. Nowadays just do TikTok, can huat already.

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OnlyFans

 

[inlinesix]

  On 1/7/2023 at 2:53 PM, Benarsenal said:

No need to study so hard lah. Nowadays just do TikTok, can huat already.

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Content creation is very tough work hor

[Tianmo]

  On 1/7/2023 at 2:03 PM, Wind30 said:

for me it’s different. I let her auto pilot for her sec1 sec2 years. If her grades is above median I am happy. She can do whatever she wants. If she is below median, I want to know so I can help her improve if needed. 

if she is well above median, no need to improve. Just continue doing whatever she is doing. Why the added pressure to improve?

edit: I kind of see what you are saying but this kind of continuous endless self improvement is tiring, at least to me. If the kid or parent have this mindset, I agree u don’t need an external benchmark but like I say, it’s very tiring…

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Do you assume the school does not have those numbers? 

Yes, they are not giving it to you,  but not giving it to you does not mean they don't collect those information. 

If you are interested, ask! It's just so simple, you don't have to be in the GEP to understand. 

Instead of commenting on the system,  pick up the phone and call the form teacher, make an appointment to meet up. All the information you wanted will appear before you, but you can only see and  remember,  no recording.  

How I know? I did that every year.  I always skip PTC, and make a separate appointment with the form teacher after PTC. 

I always get to see what I wanted to know from the school, which is what you want to know. 

Maybe I simple mind, so I make simple thing simple. Simple enough? Or maybe not concern enough, or lazy enough,  or not enough spoon feed. 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by Tianmo

[Mkl22]

  On 1/7/2023 at 3:57 PM, Tianmo said:

Do you assume the school does not have those numbers? 

Yes, they are not giving it to you,  but not giving it to you does not mean they don't collect those information. 

If you are interested, ask! It's just so simple, you don't have to be in the GEP to understand. 

Instead of commenting on the system,  pick up the phone and call the form teacher, make an appointment to meet up. All the information you wanted will appear before you, but you can only see and  remember,  no recording.  

How I know? I did that every year.  I always skip PTC, and make a separate appointment with the form teacher after PTC. 

I always get to see what I wanted to know from the school, which is what you want to know. 

Maybe I simple mind, so I make simple thing simple. Simple enough? Or maybe not concern enough, or lazy enough,  or not enough spoon feed. 

 

 

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Kudos! You are not the sort who requires information to be “Gifted” to you! 😆

[Tianmo]

  On 1/7/2023 at 4:20 PM, Mkl22 said:

Kudos! You are not the sort who requires information to be “Gifted” to you! 😆

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I not "gifted" mah, and I simple mind do simple thing lor. 

But I always know that if I wanted an answer to something I don't know, ASK!

Ask and you shall get, is one of my motto. I don't need the gov to spoon  feed me everything, including some basic information and free healthy meals. 

 

 

[Wind30]

  On 1/7/2023 at 1:56 PM, Sosaria said:

No choice mah. GEP only 1% or 2%? I can't remember what figure was thrown out at that MOE briefing they made every parent sit through when the kids make it into this scheme. Policies have to be made for the mainstream; no choice GEP as a small minority must follow.

They have to make the general population happy that their children are going places and getting that all important piece of paper. Almost everyone can make it to tertiary education. More through-train schemes so that more can avoid the benchmark national exams. The academically stronger students have through-train scheme in the 6-year IP programmes, while the academically weaker students also have through-train schemes in the poly foundation programmes. Sooner or later, the national exams will be made obsolete when there is no longer much demand.

The real test of how good the education system is will be decided by the employers. They are the ones evaluating the products of the system; the real benchmark test. Are the products up to standard?

I get what you mean by "soft" - as I too feel that some policies these days, not specific to education, are a little too "woke" and seemingly for political correctness, but then that's how the world goes now.

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exactly, I think you get my point. It is not about just dropping the median score out of the report card.  I am worried about this relentless drive to remove benchmarking. 

Does not telling a student that he/she is below average help the student improve? Are our student so fragile that we need to remove simple forms of objective negative feedback? How far is MOE going to take this before it bites them in the foot and we end up with a generation of mediocre students?

BTW, there is no GEP in secondary schools now. 

[BanCoe]

  On 1/7/2023 at 1:18 PM, mersaylee said:

I thot it was Lay's...up by a dollah from 3+ to almost 5...when ah wong said 7 going 8...😁

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Aiyah …….

this is how you must do math ……. To make $$ ….. even Coke does it ….All dis people like studi Preambree Tree oni ….

[RadX]

  On 1/7/2023 at 10:27 PM, BanCoe said:

Aiyah …….

this is how you must do math ……. To make $$ ….. even Coke does it ….All dis people like studi Preambree Tree oni ….

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Old man issue ah… piston jam.. need wd40😂

[Wind30]

  On 1/7/2023 at 3:57 PM, Tianmo said:

Do you assume the school does not have those numbers? 

Yes, they are not giving it to you,  but not giving it to you does not mean they don't collect those information. 

If you are interested, ask! It's just so simple, you don't have to be in the GEP to understand. 

Instead of commenting on the system,  pick up the phone and call the form teacher, make an appointment to meet up. All the information you wanted will appear before you, but you can only see and  remember,  no recording.  

How I know? I did that every year.  I always skip PTC, and make a separate appointment with the form teacher after PTC. 

I always get to see what I wanted to know from the school, which is what you want to know. 

Maybe I simple mind, so I make simple thing simple. Simple enough? Or maybe not concern enough, or lazy enough,  or not enough spoon feed. 

 

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First off, thanks, your post is actually quite informative. I am curious whether this removal of median score is just my school thing or MOE directive. Seems your child school has done this and even earlier. My daughter school just started last year. 

Ok back to your questions. No I don't assume the school don't have the numbers. In fact, I think they will be looking at the median sooo much more now as not telling the parents the median, means parents have to rely like raw scores for references, ie above 80 is good, etc. The medians have to be very well controlled for that to work, ie all subjects over the years have to be similar difficulty. That is the other problem with doing this, I don't think the is possible. In 2021, when the school gave out medians, the lowest median was 68 while the highest is 81.... 

Did you assume I did not ask? I told my daughter to ask for it. She said the teacher told them black and white no median scores starting 2022 along with some reasons... The year just started, I am not sure when the PTC is our school. I will ask the form teacher for it when I go for it. I am not sure if she will release it, maybe she will, maybe she won't. I honestly think either you are quite handsome or your teacher is willing to go against the school directive.

Anyway, you also agree that median scores are useful. To me, it just does not make sense to remove it. what's the adv of removing it??? it is just a simple number to see which subjects if any my child is weak in.

[Kopites]

  On 1/7/2023 at 1:49 PM, Lala81 said:

For pri school, there is just no final exam. But you should still have your regular term WA after p2. 

And at least for my girl last year, the teacher will announce the top few results in the class for the test/exam. 

 

 

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Officially there are no exam in p1 and p2 according to MOE. Unofficially there were testa conducted in class to gauge the students progress. 

Evidences from the p3 class reallocation and end of year awards ceremony. Check your child p3 classmates. More or less you can guauge from there.

 

[BanCoe]

  On 1/7/2023 at 10:30 PM, RadX said:

Old man issue ah… piston jam.. need wd40😂

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Unker !  thanks belly much  for sharing your s-experience/s be it KY or WD🤣🤣

[Throttle2]

  On 1/7/2023 at 2:03 PM, Wind30 said:

for me it’s different. I let her auto pilot for her sec1 sec2 years. If her grades is above median I am happy. She can do whatever she wants. If she is below median, I want to know so I can help her improve if needed. 

if she is well above median, no need to improve. Just continue doing whatever she is doing. Why the added pressure to improve?

edit: I kind of see what you are saying but this kind of continuous endless self improvement is tiring, at least to me. If the kid or parent have this mindset, I agree u don’t need an external benchmark but like I say, it’s very tiring…

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To me the race is against your own self, never others.  Others can do very well or very poorly but i go my own pace ahead. 
Yes I understand in any and every environment, we are compared against our peers.  And that is already enough
Self improvement aint about mugging .

all the best to your girls secondary school life. Mine just entered and shes already a mess.  All the best to my girl too.  😅

 

[Tianmo]

  On 1/7/2023 at 10:33 PM, Wind30 said:

First off, thanks, your post is actually quite informative. I am curious whether this removal of median score is just my school thing or MOE directive. Seems your child school has done this and even earlier. My daughter school just started last year. 

Ok back to your questions. No I don't assume the school don't have the numbers. In fact, I think they will be looking at the median sooo much more now as not telling the parents the median, means parents have to rely like raw scores for references, ie above 80 is good, etc. The medians have to be very well controlled for that to work, ie all subjects over the years have to be similar difficulty. That is the other problem with doing this, I don't think the is possible. In 2021, when the school gave out medians, the lowest median was 68 while the highest is 81.... 

Did you assume I did not ask? I told my daughter to ask for it. She said the teacher told them black and white no median scores starting 2022 along with some reasons... The year just started, I am not sure when the PTC is our school. I will ask the form teacher for it when I go for it. I am not sure if she will release it, maybe she will, maybe she won't. I honestly think either you are quite handsome or your teacher is willing to go against the school directive.

Anyway, you also agree that median scores are useful. To me, it just does not make sense to remove it. what's the adv of removing it??? it is just a simple number to see which subjects if any my child is weak in.

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This thing about not showing the high-low-median scores started many years ago. I don't know why you are only facing it now. 

I said YOU call and ask for it, not ask your daughter to ask for it, there is a different you know? You need to know how schools react differently to the same requests from students and parents.  

Why need to wait for PTC? I already mentioned there is no need to wait for PTC, if it is so important to you, call the teacher tomorrow and get it from the horses mouth. There is a simple thing call take action. 

Well, I do it every year for not for the same child. And yes it was important for me in the beginning,  but not after I realised it is actually not very useful. 

You have no control over the high-low-median scores, hell you might not even be able to control how well your daughter place herself there. That median changes, and many factors can lead to that change, which you have no control over. Are you going to keep chasing after  that median score? 

If you focus on setting your target at a certain score, which is anywhere above 70%, and keep that score constant,  you will most of the time be above the median, however that median move.  How often do you get a median above 65?, yes there will be, but how often? 

If you leave her alone when she is above median, then if she comes back consistently around the targeted score, you leave her alone. Simple right?

Passing is 50, if she comes back sub 50, obviously she is weak in that subject. Even if the paper is tougher than it has to be, she won't do better than 55 on her good days, still consider weak. If she comes back 80, she is quite safe, unlikely lower than 70 on a tougher paper. 

So instead of focusing on things you can manage, you are making noise on things you cannot control.

Why need to make simple things difficult? 

OK lah, I simple mind talk simple also.