Daniel Ong, Jaime Teo underpay Twelve Cupcakes workers

[ToyotaShuttle]

  On 12/30/2020 at 8:17 AM, Soya said:

Throw the book at the goatee

But the ex wife ok lah, can still eye candy for MILF fans....lol

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put her in an orange jumpsuit and we can still have eye candy.

[Voodooman]

Is the company loss making?

If he pays the wages he is supposed to pay, will it run into losses? 

If yes to any of the above, he needs to rethink his business model and cut cost or consider running an illicit business (especially if Yes to part 2).

If no and no, then he is just greedy. Remind me of Paradise group stealing gas by tampering with gas meters.  No different. 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by Voodooman

[Volvobrick]

  On 12/30/2020 at 2:49 AM, Hubwee said:

Sometimes really pity those small and medium size F&B bosses lo ...

wants to employ locals but locals not keen due to working hours and wages ... 

pay more to hire local workers but cost will go up hence needs to price their food higher but locals kbkp ...

wants to employ fw legally but manpower laws on quota makes it almost impossible to meet . 7 locals then you can have 1 FW ... 

really Jin pai tan lo ...

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Yet many still jump into F and B..... They must know something we don't. 

 

[Cheesey74]

  On 12/30/2020 at 2:49 AM, Hubwee said:

Sometimes really pity those small and medium size F&B bosses lo ...

wants to employ locals but locals not keen due to working hours and wages ... 

pay more to hire local workers but cost will go up hence needs to price their food higher but locals kbkp ...

wants to employ fw legally but manpower laws on quota makes it almost impossible to meet . 7 locals then you can have 1 FW ... 

really Jin pai tan lo ...

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Sorry, i dun really pity these sme bosses who play punk to earn money.

It all abt p&l, if u can't stay competitive doing business legally, then better close shop n become a salaryman.

That's why there r bosses & employee, only those who r smart or brave or lucky enough can run a successful legit business, those resort to underhand tactics r just the losers.

As the old chinese saying goes, wanna eat salted fish then must take the thirst.

So many bosses say business pai tan yet change car or watches more than we change underwear.. lol.

 

[Watwheels]

I think DO is not as capable as people think he is. It's contradicting when people say that his company is not big and has not many employees and yet he goes thru such an elaborate plan to cheat his employees. It's small money.

Given he knows what is happening but nobody would have told him if he's caught he could end up in jail. That's also a possibility. When people execute a plan to cheat who will think of getting caught?

I for one do not think he is so capable. Can come up with such a plan.

[Hubwee]

  On 12/30/2020 at 10:04 AM, Volvobrick said:

Yet many still jump into F and B..... They must know something we don't. 

 

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Cos things seems easy from the outside lo ... 

Took over a family friendly KTV pub before , finds that unless the boss / owners run it themselves , it’s just not worth the trouble lo ...

we had such a hard time employing local waitresses , even when we are willing to pay up to 4.5 k lo ....

People always dun believe lo that you cannot get a local even with 4.5 k salary and when you managed to employ one , their pattern really more than badminton lo ... Opening hour 5 pm , 430 pm just text and say drank too much last night , today cannot come work ... Dun even bother to go get MC kind lo . 
 

Not just 1 but most of them does the same pattern one lo ... 

Hence 9 out of 10 pub owners that we know rather go thru those non legit employment agency .... Hence after 3 years even thought still making money , sold the pub as its just not worth the headache lo ..

So it’s easy for keyboard warriors whom have not managed a F&B business to sprout rubbish and talk about if cannot be competitive should just close or what ... 

 

 

 

[ToyotaShuttle]

  On 12/30/2020 at 2:26 PM, Watwheels said:

I think DO is not as capable as people think he is. It's contradicting when people say that his company is not big and has not many employees and yet he goes thru such an elaborate plan to cheat his employees. It's small money.

Given he knows what is happening but nobody would have told him if he's caught he could end up in jail. That's also a possibility. When people execute a plan to cheat who will think of getting caught?

I for one do not think he is so capable. Can come up with such a plan.

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Elaborate plan? this overdeclare + cashback shit has been around and used by so many SMEs.

Don't think it needs a genius criminal mastermind brain to do it. As you can see from the last link, there are over 60 companies caught doing the same thing. 

https://www.mom.gov.sg/newsroom/press-releases/2019/0114-gd-group-pte-ltd-fined-for-falsely-declaring-salaries-in-work-pass-applications

https://www.humanresourcesonline.net/company-director-charged-for-false-salary-declarations-collecting-kickbacks-and-more

https://www.onlinecitizenasia.com/2020/08/21/mom-took-7-yrs-to-uncover-false-declaration-of-foreigners-salary-to-obtain-work-pass/

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/company-fined-52000-for-falsely-declaring-monthly-salary-of-its-workers-to

https://www.onlinecitizenasia.com/2020/08/21/mom-took-7-yrs-to-uncover-false-declaration-of-foreigners-salary-to-obtain-work-pass/

https://www.cnplaw.com/false-declaration-of-salaries-in-work-pass-applications-cnpupdate

Edited December 30, 2020 by ToyotaShuttle

[Watwheels]

  On 12/30/2020 at 2:55 PM, ToyotaShuttle said:

Elaborate plan? this overdeclare + cashback shit has been around and used by so many SMEs.

Don't think it needs a genius criminal mastermind brain to do it. As you can see from the last link, there are over 60 companies caught doing the same thing. 

https://www.mom.gov.sg/newsroom/press-releases/2019/0114-gd-group-pte-ltd-fined-for-falsely-declaring-salaries-in-work-pass-applications

https://www.humanresourcesonline.net/company-director-charged-for-false-salary-declarations-collecting-kickbacks-and-more

https://www.onlinecitizenasia.com/2020/08/21/mom-took-7-yrs-to-uncover-false-declaration-of-foreigners-salary-to-obtain-work-pass/

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapore/courts-crime/company-fined-52000-for-falsely-declaring-monthly-salary-of-its-workers-to

https://www.onlinecitizenasia.com/2020/08/21/mom-took-7-yrs-to-uncover-false-declaration-of-foreigners-salary-to-obtain-work-pass/

https://www.cnplaw.com/false-declaration-of-salaries-in-work-pass-applications-cnpupdate

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But this all happen between 2013 to 2016 when times were good and no locals were compraining no jobs and nobody cares jobs go to foreigners. Oh ok. Now it is an issue. Hahaha.... Hokay. Got it.

[ToyotaShuttle]

  On 12/30/2020 at 3:12 PM, Watwheels said:

But this all happen between 2013 to 2016 when times were good and no locals were compraining no jobs and nobody cares jobs go to foreigners. Oh ok. Now it is an issue. Hahaha.... Hokay. Got it.

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So do you concede that it doesn't take a criminal mastermind to do what he did?

Your new argument is that it wasn't a problem in 2013-16? If it wasn't a problem and no locals were complaining then why did we even have those laws? Parliament too free?

And care to provide evidence that no locals were complaining that "no jobs" and no one cares jobs go to foreigners? I show you evidence otherwise. Not to mention that most Singaporeans just ignore the lowly skilled "ITE" class when they get their jobs stolen by FW.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/11205536/Foreigners-are-taking-our-jobs-complain-Singaporeans.html

https://thediplomat.com/2014/02/singapores-foreigner-problem/

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/current-affairs-lounge-17/pinoy-fts-perspective-immigration-jobs-3299693.html

And from this gem of a HWZ thread : https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/current-affairs-lounge-17/will-minimum-wage-laws-work-here-4112631.html

 

[ToyotaShuttle]

https://www.mom.gov.sg/newsroom/press-releases/2011/trio-face-74-charges-related-to-over-declaration-of-salaries-in-ep-and-s-pass-applications

https://twc2.org.sg/2012/03/27/employment-agent-jailed-for-s-pass-scam/

https://www.asiaone.com/singapore/22-foreign-employees-charged-falsely-declaring-their-salaries-mom

This elaborate plan is more than 10 years old. Every year also got people get caught. 

[Stratovarius]

  On 12/30/2020 at 2:47 PM, Hubwee said:

Cos things seems easy from the outside lo ... 

Took over a family friendly KTV pub before , finds that unless the boss / owners run it themselves , it’s just not worth the trouble lo ...

we had such a hard time employing local waitresses , even when we are willing to pay up to 4.5 k lo ....

People always dun believe lo that you cannot get a local even with 4.5 k salary and when you managed to employ one , their pattern really more than badminton lo ... Opening hour 5 pm , 430 pm just text and say drank too much last night , today cannot come work ... Dun even bother to go get MC kind lo . 
 

Not just 1 but most of them does the same pattern one lo ... 

Hence 9 out of 10 pub owners that we know rather go thru those non legit employment agency .... Hence after 3 years even thought still making money , sold the pub as its just not worth the headache lo ..

So it’s easy for keyboard warriors whom have not managed a F&B business to sprout rubbish and talk about if cannot be competitive should just close or what ... 

 

 

 

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Not f&b. But I spoken to some of my contractors on foreign workers. They told me not they don't want to hire local but locals are not as hardworking as foreigners. Don't want to work long hours and weekends. Not putting down on sgreans but we do have family and friends here, there is alot more things to do other than work. Comparing to a foreigner whose main aim is to earn money, the mentality is different. Cost wise not much difference in actual after adding in levy and accommodation. That's why they mainly prefer foreigners. 

F&b is even worse since most of the jobs in the industry like waitressing are non skilled. It's even harder to get good foreign workers, not to mention locals.

 

[Windwaver]

  On 12/30/2020 at 2:47 PM, Hubwee said:

Cos things seems easy from the outside lo ... 

Took over a family friendly KTV pub before , finds that unless the boss / owners run it themselves , it’s just not worth the trouble lo ...

we had such a hard time employing local waitresses , even when we are willing to pay up to 4.5 k lo ....

People always dun believe lo that you cannot get a local even with 4.5 k salary and when you managed to employ one , their pattern really more than badminton lo ... Opening hour 5 pm , 430 pm just text and say drank too much last night , today cannot come work ... Dun even bother to go get MC kind lo . 
 

Not just 1 but most of them does the same pattern one lo ... 

Hence 9 out of 10 pub owners that we know rather go thru those non legit employment agency .... Hence after 3 years even thought still making money , sold the pub as its just not worth the headache lo ..

So it’s easy for keyboard warriors whom have not managed a F&B business to sprout rubbish and talk about if cannot be competitive should just close or what ... 

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Same here, my grand parents was running an F&B business. Although we were not making losses but the profit was not amazing either. So we decided to sell off the business after some time; The same situation went for my uncle that was running F&B.

However, I do agree that we must innovate and not keep harping on what is not working. At the end of the day, there are still strong F&B players out there and the fittest survive. Our family has learnt to accept that and decided to venture into other businesses. One of my other uncle is pretty well known still into F&B and has went on TV couple of times already.

Personally, I've also tried going into business but failed and it has taught me important lessons that a paid salary worker will never understand. In fact, it changed how I see life so I think it's worth it.

 

[Watwheels]

  On 12/30/2020 at 4:12 PM, ToyotaShuttle said:

So do you concede that it doesn't take a criminal mastermind to do what he did?

Your new argument is that it wasn't a problem in 2013-16? If it wasn't a problem and no locals were complaining then why did we even have those laws? Parliament too free?

And care to provide evidence that no locals were complaining that "no jobs" and no one cares jobs go to foreigners? I show you evidence otherwise. Not to mention that most Singaporeans just ignore the lowly skilled "ITE" class when they get their jobs stolen by FW.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/expat/expatnews/11205536/Foreigners-are-taking-our-jobs-complain-Singaporeans.html

https://thediplomat.com/2014/02/singapores-foreigner-problem/

https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/current-affairs-lounge-17/pinoy-fts-perspective-immigration-jobs-3299693.html

And from this gem of a HWZ thread : https://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/current-affairs-lounge-17/will-minimum-wage-laws-work-here-4112631.html

 

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Oh I'm out sightseeing most of the time, didnt really took time to read cos I thought it's just a case of cheating employee wages.

You want me to concede to what? Hahaha....you are so cute.

At that time most if not all are doing it. Cos nobody do anything or say anything. So ppl take it as it's ok. Being prosecuted now is just suay.

 

[Hubwee]

  On 12/30/2020 at 11:13 PM, Calinlin said:

My guess:

1.It was sold at a profit and the offer was good enough to consider.

2. Employee was just one of the smaller pain you had.

3. 4.5k includes plucking the star. Kidding, but I imagine it goes beyond normal waiter scope. Probably a 4.30pm to 3am job without transport allowance and is bao ga liao. Did you try 5 or 6. 

4. Some element magnified to support a whining sme owner pov about how difficult it is to hire legally. 

And guess what is even more funny? People were talking about under paying to cheat employment pass...you went one round to whine and call people keyboard warrior when your case has zero relevance to the original discussion. And indeed, you are exactly what I meant, competitive or not competitive. Live with it or sell. 

And going back off topic on managing monkeys at work, my rubbish, as keyboard warrior, because anybody else who thinks differently to you have never hired:

Fact- we are the boss managing, we cannot expect all the workers below to guai guai. There is a reason why their pattern more than badminton, and they apply all the same in life. If they become super motivated, report in when sick, more clever than me and yet I am paying market price or below...then I worry. Those people might end up as client or competitor after a few years, or more commonly, I have no room to further advance their "career" and I have to pretend to wish them all the best when they jump to another firm. The bad ones who can play disappearing act better than david copperfield or those that are always busy but never produce anything always stay. FML. Oops, sorry, only you have hired before, I am just sprouting rubbish. I must have have read these from newspaper or some magazine or I must have made it up.

Btw, shareholders are paying us to manage the bulls**t, or we hire a manager to handle it. Of course, if stingy about $400 then must diy. I call myself "branch leader", "team leader"...blah blah blah. Sorry sorry, according to sme owners, these are headache. Should not happen because life is suppose to be perfect. Throw money in then will auto make money (Let's pretend our business is not too small to add manager headcount *wink" and we want sleeping parthner effort with business owner benefit *wink wink*)

Another fact- people are all making a living. You pay the right price better than outside, they will stay and slog their ass off because they know they cannot find equal outside. I have been both an employee and a employer.

I apologize if it didn't make sense to you, but the point I trying to make is, everybody goes through the same. Does not mean buy liao will autopilot. Someone has to do it. As business owner, by right we don't complain and just do it. Of course, it is no excuse to do things the wrong way, unless...erm...cannot be caught. I have gone off topic a lot. Complaining again in the early morning.

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Are you a F&B owner ? If yes , hats off to you , well done , you must have know / have something I do not know or have , thus you deserved your success . 

If you are not , then to me , again , just a keyboard warrior employee comments ...

[ToyotaShuttle]

  On 12/31/2020 at 1:44 AM, Watwheels said:

Oh I'm out sightseeing most of the time, didnt really took time to read cos I thought it's just a case of cheating employee wages.

You want me to concede to what? Hahaha....you are so cute.

At that time most if not all are doing it. Cos nobody do anything or say anything. So ppl take it as it's ok. Being prosecuted now is just suay.

 

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First you say that it is such an elaborate plan that this DO dude won't know about it so not his fault. Now you say everyone was doing it. Which is what?

Anyway, who said it is okay? Even way back from 2011, there are many people being caught and prosecuted.

  On 12/30/2020 at 4:23 PM, ToyotaShuttle said:

https://www.mom.gov.sg/newsroom/press-releases/2011/trio-face-74-charges-related-to-over-declaration-of-salaries-in-ep-and-s-pass-applications

https://twc2.org.sg/2012/03/27/employment-agent-jailed-for-s-pass-scam/

https://www.asiaone.com/singapore/22-foreign-employees-charged-falsely-declaring-their-salaries-mom

This elaborate plan is more than 10 years old. Every year also got people get caught. 

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Edited December 31, 2020 by ToyotaShuttle

[Sosaria]

  On 12/30/2020 at 5:01 PM, Stratovarius said:

Not f&b. But I spoken to some of my contractors on foreign workers. They told me not they don't want to hire local but locals are not as hardworking as foreigners. Don't want to work long hours and weekends. Not putting down on sgreans but we do have family and friends here, there is alot more things to do other than work. Comparing to a foreigner whose main aim is to earn money, the mentality is different. Cost wise not much difference in actual after adding in levy and accommodation. That's why they mainly prefer foreigners. 

F&b is even worse since most of the jobs in the industry like waitressing are non skilled. It's even harder to get good foreign workers, not to mention locals.

 

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This is true; for the work pass holders here, sometimes even if sick (pre-covid times), they will self-medicate and turn up for work. As their earnings take a hit if they don't show up. Only LL cannot work if caught something like food poisoning, lao sai  Very very hard-working as they know their employment time here is limited so they make full use of it to the max before returning to their home countries and waiting for the next gig.

All these minimum wage, levies etc. is just the gahmen throwing the problem at the local businesses. Local business owners are squeezed between unmotivated local employees and expensive hiring costs and regulatory roadblocks to hire foreginers.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Sosaria

[Hubwee]

  On 12/31/2020 at 1:08 AM, Windwaver said:

Same here, my grand parents was running an F&B business. Although we were not making losses but the profit was not amazing either. So we decided to sell off the business after some time; The same situation went for my uncle that was running F&B.

However, I do agree that we must innovate and not keep harping on what is not working. At the end of the day, there are still strong F&B players out there and the fittest survive. Our family has learnt to accept that and decided to venture into other businesses. One of my other uncle is pretty well known still into F&B and has went on TV couple of times already.

Personally, I've also tried going into business but failed and it has taught me important lessons that a paid salary worker will never understand. In fact, it changed how I see life so I think it's worth it.

 

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Yes , agree that one needs to innovate to survive in the F&B business , something I did not really bother as the place I brought over was just a place I wanted to have so friends and myself can hang out whenever we want and tot it’s a pretty good idea to own a pub myself rather than spend elsewhere lo . 
 

But the hiring of locals and FW legally is really something most F&B business owners struggles with big time lo . I heard it was much easier hiring Malaysians previously ...

Business failures are common and if one can pick himself up and learn from his failures , good things will surely follow ...

What I learnt after some years of owing businesses myself is that I have learn to accept , the fact that employees will never ever think like an owner which is why there are owners and there are employees . Something I find hard to understand during the early years of my business so i managed to convince myself by thinking if all think like owners , why would these employees wants to work for me when they can be bosses themselves ...
 

[Lala81]

F&B is tough business. The staffing issue is really a big headache. That's why gradually just see the big boys opening more "concepts".

Manpower issues only become manageable as u go past a certain size. Cos u can spread the staff out in case of MC etc.

If u are a 1-2 outlet/shop outfit, 1-2 men down is really a migraine sized headache.