Budget 2020: Encouraging Use of More Environmentally Friendly Vehicles

[Victor68]

I have a question. Basic knowledge is during a short circuit,  you cut off the power supply. That wire from battery to fuse box is still live without fuse protection. In the case of EV, the battery capacity is going to be much bigger. How is this addressed? Any idea?

[Glidemetro]

A word for all the scholars in LTA. Do all you want, think all you want, propose all you want. We are at your mercy. For every action / policy you made, there is a reaction.  I shall leave that to our fellows motorists to comment on it.. Remaining the current one may not be a bad one... 

[Xers007]

5 hours ago, Philipkee said:

If the govt were really sincere in moving towards EV, first thing they should do is mandate all public buses and taxis to be fully electric.  The bus companies and taxi companies can easily build the infrastructure for their own vehicles.  This infrastructure can slowly be expanded to include all vehicles.

Then if there are any teething problems it will be seen then.  Once it is resolved, move it to make all or most private vehicles electric as planned.  For example if taxis find it hard to charge their taxis cos it takes too long even if the infrastructure is there, the govt will know that if private vehicles turn electric the same problem will happen on a bigger scale.  

I dont understand how the word "easy" can be used here. The bus company cant even buy their own bus without making their books look ugly. The taxi dont park in a depot like bus do so where to build the charger? If at the house of the taxi driver which the driver decide to hang up their licence or swap to another company the next day, how to move these chargers around and a charger is definitely not built for 1 car use. It is all just down to one word "cost" and this is no teething problem.

[Philipkee]

49 minutes ago, Xers007 said:

I dont understand how the word "easy" can be used here. The bus company cant even buy their own bus without making their books look ugly. The taxi dont park in a depot like bus do so where to build the charger? If at the house of the taxi driver which the driver decide to hang up their licence or swap to another company the next day, how to move these chargers around and a charger is definitely not built for 1 car use. It is all just down to one word "cost" and this is no teething problem.

Easy cos the bus companies and taxi companies generally have govt links.  All the govt need to do is set aside funds for it.  Yes it reduce the profit margin but the govt is the majority shareholder  IIRC so its not like members of the public will complain AS LONG AS no fare hike.

In other countries maybe it's a bit different with profit and loss but here the govt is the majority shareholder so if govt wants it one way, they get it one way.

Buses can charge in the depot.  IIRC a lot of taxis are hired out.  So maybe the drivers can switch taxis when changing shift or something so taxis are not lying vacant and unused.  AND if the taxis are really fully used and charging is an issue not because of lack of infrastructure but it takes too long to charge, isnt it better to find out and solve this at a level where govt can still control before EV become the norm so that when EV really becomes the norm, the problem would have been solved (if not solvable then hold back launching of EV).

Alternatively have EV chargers at certain MSCP so taxi drivers can make use of it when off or changing shift.  Just have it at certain MSCP.  If the taxi driver finds it inconvenient (cos far from his place) he is free to either charge at electric points at taxi company or just rent a diesel taxi like now.  And then monitor the uptake and see where is the problem and see if it can be solved.  

I believe not all MSCP are fully subscribed.   The top floors of less used MSCP can be charging points for EV to be left charging overnight (if you want to recoup loss, there are ways of extracting payment).

But it really needs political will to see it through.

[goldennugget]

On 2/18/2020 at 9:09 PM, awhtc said:

All the petrol stations in Singapore will face more challenges going forward since it is not practical to charge the electric cars at existing petrol stations.  The owners are more likely to charge them overnight in the car park. 

The electric vehicle fires are also very difficult to put out, so do expect more fiery crashes when we have more electric vehicles zipping around. 

i'm guessing the charging stations will be installed in HDB carparks too.. but as with anything that is shared, confirm difficult to educate people - just see what happened to the shared bikes. and u put a lot for EV charging, confirm some bugger driving ICE car will just park there

also... will we see singaporeans drive into malaysia to charge their cars? LOL

[Sdf4786k]

7 hours ago, Philipkee said:

If the govt were really sincere in moving towards EV, first thing they should do is mandate all public buses and taxis to be fully electric.  The bus companies and taxi companies can easily build the infrastructure for their own vehicles.  This infrastructure can slowly be expanded to include all vehicles.

Then if there are any teething problems it will be seen then.  Once it is resolved, move it to make all or most private vehicles electric as planned.  For example if taxis find it hard to charge their taxis cos it takes too long even if the infrastructure is there, the govt will know that if private vehicles turn electric the same problem will happen on a bigger scale.  

That’s a very rational and pragmatic way of looking at it. But takes too much hard work and initial cost to bear.

think back on the slogan...

working hard or are you hardly working.

with the shrinking of the population. Doing more with less. 

the inevitable would be to have a higher than usual tax on ICE vehicles. So much so that it makes very little sense to buy , just like diesel . The distributors would then be force to only provide the higher cost EV.

works well from a 3 pronged approach.

1. Carlite becomes a reality without much inertia or convincing 

2. carbon footprint print drop

3. EV take up rate becomes successful 

I know right LL suck thumb.

but they know best ... 

Edited February 22, 2020 by Sdf4786k

[Xers007]

3 hours ago, Philipkee said:

Easy cos the bus companies and taxi companies generally have govt links.  All the govt need to do is set aside funds for it.  Yes it reduce the profit margin but the govt is the majority shareholder  IIRC so its not like members of the public will complain AS LONG AS no fare hike.

In other countries maybe it's a bit different with profit and loss but here the govt is the majority shareholder so if govt wants it one way, they get it one way.

Buses can charge in the depot.  IIRC a lot of taxis are hired out.  So maybe the drivers can switch taxis when changing shift or something so taxis are not lying vacant and unused.  AND if the taxis are really fully used and charging is an issue not because of lack of infrastructure but it takes too long to charge, isnt it better to find out and solve this at a level where govt can still control before EV become the norm so that when EV really becomes the norm, the problem would have been solved (if not solvable then hold back launching of EV).

Alternatively have EV chargers at certain MSCP so taxi drivers can make use of it when off or changing shift.  Just have it at certain MSCP.  If the taxi driver finds it inconvenient (cos far from his place) he is free to either charge at electric points at taxi company or just rent a diesel taxi like now.  And then monitor the uptake and see where is the problem and see if it can be solved.  

I believe not all MSCP are fully subscribed.   The top floors of less used MSCP can be charging points for EV to be left charging overnight (if you want to recoup loss, there are ways of extracting payment).

But it really needs political will to see it through.

Even if govt are involved, it will never be "easy" when it comes to money. Its not sunken cost as maintainance are needed for these charger and i dont think the govt can just throw money in without strong use case and justification.

[Rickster]

IMHO, the bigger challenge of EV in Singapore is more on practicality over costs. I clock quite serious mileage of over 2200 km monthly. Therefore, I almost bought the i3 EV a year ago, but in the end, got a diesel instead. Key reason is the time it takes to fully charge and EV. 

Even if I can find a charging point outside, I have to wait like 40 mins or more and that is assuming the charging point is not occupied.

Unless we can readily swap batteries at petrol stations or a new technology that can charge a car in under 10 minutes arrives, diesel or hybrid still makes more sense for most people who don't stay in landed properties.

Edited February 22, 2020 by Rickster

[Rickster]

4 hours ago, goldennugget said:

i'm guessing the charging stations will be installed in HDB carparks too.. but as with anything that is shared, confirm difficult to educate people - just see what happened to the shared bikes. and u put a lot for EV charging, confirm some bugger driving ICE car will just park there

also... will we see singaporeans drive into malaysia to charge their cars? LOL

Not just parked there. What if other EV are charging? You don't expect the owner immediately shift their car to other lots after full charge right?

Assuming I come home late at night and my battery is low... Assuming I'm lucky enough to find a lot with charging station, I plug my car in and go home and sleep Liao... 2 hours later, my car is fully charged, but I'm happily in dreamland while another EV is cursing me for leaving my car parked there hogging a charging point when my battery is already full.😂

[inlinesix]

5 hours ago, Philipkee said:

Easy cos the bus companies and taxi companies generally have govt links.  All the govt need to do is set aside funds for it.  Yes it reduce the profit margin but the govt is the majority shareholder  IIRC so its not like members of the public will complain AS LONG AS no fare hike.

In other countries maybe it's a bit different with profit and loss but here the govt is the majority shareholder so if govt wants it one way, they get it one way.

Buses can charge in the depot.  IIRC a lot of taxis are hired out.  So maybe the drivers can switch taxis when changing shift or something so taxis are not lying vacant and unused.  AND if the taxis are really fully used and charging is an issue not because of lack of infrastructure but it takes too long to charge, isnt it better to find out and solve this at a level where govt can still control before EV become the norm so that when EV really becomes the norm, the problem would have been solved (if not solvable then hold back launching of EV).

Alternatively have EV chargers at certain MSCP so taxi drivers can make use of it when off or changing shift.  Just have it at certain MSCP.  If the taxi driver finds it inconvenient (cos far from his place) he is free to either charge at electric points at taxi company or just rent a diesel taxi like now.  And then monitor the uptake and see where is the problem and see if it can be solved.  

I believe not all MSCP are fully subscribed.   The top floors of less used MSCP can be charging points for EV to be left charging overnight (if you want to recoup loss, there are ways of extracting payment).

But it really needs political will to see it through.

Under bus contracting model, all bus belongs to Ah Gong.
I was told fully charged bus can run at least 200km.

Just make sure the bus run on high voltage architecture to enable fast DC charging.

SP Power is ramping up charging station now.

For taxi/PHV drivers, the hirer needs to educate drivers to use regen brake to extend their mileage.

Otherwise, it will be a fail experiment 

Edited February 22, 2020 by inlinesix

[Voodooman]

18 hours ago, Ct3833 said:

If EV car volume starts to pick up, LTA better work with SP to ensure sufficient number of charging stations, otherwise we can see people fighting for charging stations like A&W fighting for seats.

And one more thing LTA has  not mentioned or thought  about it, they charge hefty fuel tax to discourage car usage(their excuse? ), so next, they will levy higher electricity  meter charges for EV car charging. They are likely cracking their heads now to see how to make up fuel tax shortfall, $700 per year is not going to be enough. Let's see if this will happen. 

I remember you stay in a landed, you should consider buying an EV, especially if you have 2 cars at home. With the tax rebate and lower running cost (home electricity tariff is relatively cheap now), it makes sense to consider EV.

My place and workplace have charging points (or installation can be arranged), so I might consider EV next.

 

[Voodooman]

56 minutes ago, Rickster said:

Not just parked there. What if other EV are charging? You don't expect the owner immediately shift their car to other lots after full charge right?

Assuming I come home late at night and my battery is low... Assuming I'm lucky enough to find a lot with charging station, I plug my car in and go home and sleep Liao... 2 hours later, my car is fully charged, but I'm happily in dreamland while another EV is cursing me for leaving my car parked there hogging a charging point when my battery is already full.😂

As demand grows, more chargers will be added.  Got money to make, SP won't say no. You have to assume park and charge overnight.

[inlinesix]

18 minutes ago, Voodooman said:

I remember you stay in a landed, you should consider buying an EV, especially if you have 2 cars at home. With the tax rebate and lower running cost (home electricity tariff is relatively cheap now), it makes sense to consider EV.

My place and workplace have charging points (or installation can be arranged), so I might consider EV next.

AC too slow for EV. Need to install DC charger. I think it’s about $5k.

DC charger needs 3 phase power.

[Ct3833]

20 minutes ago, Voodooman said:

I remember you stay in a landed, you should consider buying an EV, especially if you have 2 cars at home. With the tax rebate and lower running cost (home electricity tariff is relatively cheap now), it makes sense to consider EV.

My place and workplace have charging points (or installation can be arranged), so I might consider EV next.

 

Just renewed COE last year, so will stay put for a while. You are absolutely right about the lower operating cost of electricity tariff.  In fact most of the ADs provide free charging point installation  at one point, I am not sure if now  is still the case. My concerns is what if the high current battery catch fire at the car porch when charging .😅😅😅

[inlinesix]

6 minutes ago, Ct3833 said:

Just renewed COE last year, so will stay put for a while. You are absolutely right about the lower operating cost of electricity tariff.  In fact most of the ADs provide free charging point installation  at one point, I am not sure if now  is still the case. My concerns is what if the high current battery catch fire at the car porch when charging .😅😅😅

You better buy TOTO then.

1w = 1v x 1a.
With high voltage application like Taycan (800v), every amp of power will equate to 800w. To run 50kw DC charging, you need 63amp.

On the other hand, Tesla uses 375v application. It needs 133amp.

Lower amp = lower temp.

[TeamAMG69]

1 hour ago, Rickster said:

Not just parked there. What if other EV are charging? You don't expect the owner immediately shift their car to other lots after full charge right?

Assuming I come home late at night and my battery is low... Assuming I'm lucky enough to find a lot with charging station, I plug my car in and go home and sleep Liao... 2 hours later, my car is fully charged, but I'm happily in dreamland while another EV is cursing me for leaving my car parked there hogging a charging point when my battery is already full.😂

yes, any scholar can help solve this problem?

also, what happens when those inconsiderate kids / sour grapes remove your electric plug ?

the next day / a few hours later, your car is still empty.

does anyone know if there are security camera (HDB / Condo / Shopping malls) at the EV charging lots stations ?

 

 

[goldennugget]

20 hours ago, Rickster said:

Not just parked there. What if other EV are charging? You don't expect the owner immediately shift their car to other lots after full charge right?

Assuming I come home late at night and my battery is low... Assuming I'm lucky enough to find a lot with charging station, I plug my car in and go home and sleep Liao... 2 hours later, my car is fully charged, but I'm happily in dreamland while another EV is cursing me for leaving my car parked there hogging a charging point when my battery is already full.😂

u are right. nobody in their right mind will wake up in the middle of the night just to move their cars. maybe the solution is to start allocating lots to each unit. 1 unit 1 lot. for additional lots, pay extra...

[goldennugget]

18 hours ago, TeamAMG69 said:

yes, any scholar can help solve this problem?

also, what happens when those inconsiderate kids / sour grapes remove your electric plug ?

the next day / a few hours later, your car is still empty.

does anyone know if there are security camera (HDB / Condo / Shopping malls) at the EV charging lots stations ?

 

 

allocate parking lots to each unit. install CCTV in the area.

wah... need to make such drastic changes just for EV lol