Pritam Singh asked Chan Chun Sing whether is PAP releasing the amount of jobs between locals and foreigners

[Kusje]

2 hours ago, Philipkee said:

I think there is no data.  Meaning.  The minister can realise that highly paid jobs in company A goes to foreigners while the lowly paid ones goes to locals.   How does the minister know if the hiring process was fair? There is no independent source of info.  It's all based on what info the company provides (attitude of Singaporean interviewee during the interview etc which might not be accurate).  You need whistle blowers but it's still he said she said and usually no happy ending for whistleblower.

And there are Singaporean workers who are really lazy. So how to justify keeping them?  HR will ask.  There are foreigners with same attitude but how do you prove it?  You need a whistle blower if HR hides the fact- and no happy ending for whistle blowers.

In short, you can have lots of data.  But its accuracy and fairness is suspect.  Which is same as no data actually.

Singapore seems to have this attitude and that is rules are set and people will follow.  They never seem to consider that people will knowingly seek to break the rules and now they dont know how to handle it (as a corollary, maybe that is why we seem susceptible to scams?).

How can there be no data? Who is asking if the process is fair? PS is just asking for the data. CS already said he has the data so the rest of it is just obfuscating the matter.

Quote

Noting that official statistics on ‘locals’ often combines Singaporeans and PRs, Aljunied MP Pritam Singh repeatedly asked for clarification on Chan’s point about employment figures between 2015 and 2018. He wanted to know how many jobs went to Singaporeans and how many went to PRs, and whether the government would provide that data in future.

“If the government’s approach is going to be ‘No, we are not going to provide that data’, can the Minister please share that detail with us here? Because it’s pointless for us to keep asking the question if the government is not going to provide that data,” said the Workers’ Party chief.

In response, Chan said, “We can get you the numbers, but let me say this: what is the point behind the questions?

So where's the data?

[Fitvip]

They are very good at side tracking. 

When PEH asked about the salaries of you know who, what sort of answer did he get from LW? 

When one knows what he disclose will be disadvantageous, he would try to confuse! 

 

When OTC asked about the reserves, what was the answer?

Edited January 9, 2020 by Fitvip

[Philipkee]

1 hour ago, Kusje said:

How can there be no data? Who is asking if the process is fair? PS is just asking for the data. CS already said he has the data so the rest of it is just obfuscating the matter.

So where's the data?

That's why I say no data. Or more accurately, no accurate data.

It's like I ask a group of employees to provide the data on how much they work because the CEO wants to know if department is under worked or productive.  They produce the data.  But I highly suspect their canteen breaks and gossips time and tea breaks are not inside cos canteen is always full but the data shows they work 8 hours every day .  So I have no confidence in presenting the data to my CEO on how productive my workers are.  I can ask them to redo the data again and again but I will get same figures.

I can independently audit but its probably only going to be temporary as everyone acts busy when I am around. Unless I really got one auditor per company to just monitor.  Which is impractical.

I have data, but I have no confidence in it.  So I confuse.  Data that you cannot reveal with confidence in its accuracy (cos you must assume that the person you are revealing it to is going to use the figures in planning or going to verify them independently) is no data.

Another example will be smrt. If there is no time for maintenance but all check boxes are always ticked, management should question the data instead of happily accepting it.

My two cents.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Philipkee

[Throttle2]

15 hours ago, Philipkee said:

I am curious.  Why cant we have a car industry?  Ford factory used to be in Singapore. 

I am not talking about the electric car but like in Thailand they can build Japanese cars.  Why cant we do something like it here? Lack of know how?  Infrastructure?

It is possible, but we hv to build cars that are only suitable for TPTK @turboflat .

we need to make high value stuff.

 

[Throttle2]

1 hour ago, Philipkee said:

That's why I say no data. Or more accurately, no accurate data.

It's like I ask a group of employees to provide the data on how much they work because the CEO wants to know if department is under worked or productive.  They produce the data.  But I highly suspect their canteen breaks and gossips time and tea breaks are not inside cos canteen is always full but the data shows they work 8 hours every day .  So I have no confidence in presenting the data to my CEO on how productive my workers are.  I can ask them to redo the data again and again but I will get same figures.

I can independently audit but its probably only going to be temporary as everyone acts busy when I am around. Unless I really got one auditor per company to just monitor.  Which is impractical.

I have data, but I have no confidence in it.  So I confuse.  Data that you cannot reveal with confidence in its accuracy (cos you must assume that the person you are revealing it to is going to use the figures in planning or going to verify them independently) is no data.

Another example will be smrt. If there is no time for maintenance but all check boxes are always ticked, management should question the data instead of happily accepting it.

My two cents.

Like 👍

[Kusje]

1 hour ago, Philipkee said:

That's why I say no data. Or more accurately, no accurate data.

It's like I ask a group of employees to provide the data on how much they work because the CEO wants to know if department is under worked or productive.  They produce the data.  But I highly suspect their canteen breaks and gossips time and tea breaks are not inside cos canteen is always full but the data shows they work 8 hours every day .  So I have no confidence in presenting the data to my CEO on how productive my workers are.  I can ask them to redo the data again and again but I will get same figures.

I can independently audit but its probably only going to be temporary as everyone acts busy when I am around. Unless I really got one auditor per company to just monitor.  Which is impractical.

I have data, but I have no confidence in it.  So I confuse.  Data that you cannot reveal with confidence in its accuracy (cos you must assume that the person you are revealing it to is going to use the figures in planning or going to verify them independently) is no data.

Another example will be smrt. If there is no time for maintenance but all check boxes are always ticked, management should question the data instead of happily accepting it.

My two cents.

just provide the data. it is up to the people to decide how to interpret it.

The rest of what you said is just obfuscation.

Edited January 9, 2020 by Kusje

[Throttle2]

4 minutes ago, Kusje said:

just provide the data. it is up to the people to decide how to interpret it.

Inflation in singapore is 2% leh.  Huat ah!

[Philipkee]

12 minutes ago, Kusje said:

just provide the data. it is up to the people to decide how to interpret it.

The rest of what you said is just obfuscation.

I think the problem is there is a worry of how data is interpreted or misinterpreted. Cos people are not trained to read the data and those who interpreted might have their own agenda.

But I agree one point and that is CCS should have been upfront of the data in parliament unless he has no confidence in the data or it's really bad.  Either way it looks bad on him.  Cos its fine if you don't want to publish it but at least answer it in parliament.

I also want to ask a question.  Of what purpose is the question?  I am not saying the question is valid or invalid. My analysis is PS might want to point out flaws in the G way of thinking maybe to provide solutions while CCS thinks the questioning is one questioning his competency and hence the defensiveness.

[Mkl22]

8 minutes ago, Philipkee said:

I think the problem is there is a worry of how data is interpreted or misinterpreted. Cos people are not trained to read the data and those who interpreted might have their own agenda.

But I agree one point and that is CCS should have been upfront of the data in parliament unless he has no confidence in the data or it's really bad.  Either way it looks bad on him.  Cos its fine if you don't want to publish it but at least answer it in parliament.

I also want to ask a question.  Of what purpose is the question?  I am not saying the question is valid or invalid. My analysis is PS might want to point out flaws in the G way of thinking maybe to provide solutions while CCS thinks the questioning is one questioning his competency and hence the defensiveness.

Then the whole world can stop functioning cause cannot trust data. Or scared get misinterpreted. 

[Philipkee]

3 minutes ago, Mkl22 said:

Then the whole world can stop functioning cause cannot trust data. Or scared get misinterpreted. 

Depends on the one releasing the data.  How he takes criticisms.   If he is matured, he takes it in his stride and moves on.  If he fears criticism then he keeps data secret.

I wont say the world stop functioning but if u read news like swine flu and now the flu in wuhan you wonder how much sensitisation has the released data gone through.  Plus trade and state of economy of USA etc.... but the world still spins.

[Victor68]

11 hours ago, Fitvip said:

They are very good at side tracking. 

When PEH asked about the salaries of you know who, what sort of answer did he get from LW? 

When one knows what he disclose will be disadvantageous, he would try to confuse! 

 

When OTC asked about the reserves, what was the answer?

You have given them too much credit liao. They aren't 'good' at side tracking questions. They just ignore and decide not to answer, bully. However, if others try to side track or don't answer, then tomorrow it is headline everywhere. 

[Sdf4786k]

23 hours ago, Wind30 said:

Ok then if u are the government to solve this ft issue , u forecast that solar and wind industry will be the next big thing a few years down the road. 
are u going to take the lead and gear the University towards that in preparation? Let assume you get your forecast right... Can u attract the TOP 10% of Singaporeans to take up courses in solar/wind tech now when there are no jobs in Singapore on those stuff? Government will have to invest in r&d now and those require ft now to kick start. At the end of the day, what government says is right. 
i really think the big disconnect here is not that the public do not understand the need for ft, they unhappy that the higher pay jobs never seemed to get passed to the locals over time. Ft seems to be always there in large numbers. 
To me, the government needs to stop selling that those jobs will be passed to locals. the reasons why we need ft is not going to change... the high tech industry is always changing fast. U always need to hire ft if the company wants the better candidates.

even in this case, getting the jobs here with ft help is better than losing the MNC.

A simple case is for the FT working in singapore, think about how much of his pay gets plowed back into rents (mostly Singaporeans landlords...) expenses, education, etc. 

So as I mentioned, we need to have a clear data definition on what is a FW- Foreign worker and what is a FT- foreign talent.

If you say FW as a construction worker and living in a dormitory and paying back the loan back home, then yes, they really need help and should change the minimum pay.

If you speaking about the better ones like FT who has taxes paid for by the company and International school as well as housing and cars paid for, then its the same topic that we are touching on.

This top paying FT are sometimes the industry call tour of duty. They come to Asia, clock time, go ATM collect pay and take up a post that a ordinary good local can do. 

And thats where the larger piece of the example on 7k vs 10K came up with.

But the average ones who actually draw 7K as a FT are also not doing that badly as there is no CPF nor additional consideration. 

Back home, they will not command that kind of pay NOR have a job and hence they are here.

So is the treat real that they can setup anywhere else?

Sure, yes, can also go Malaysia, Taiwan, HK and even australia, but do they want to do that ?

All else being equal, if you setup shop in Malaysia, it has its usual charm and workers right of "working style" during office hours. Those that work in Malaysia knows what I am talking about.

IF you setup shop in India, lagi best, your expat days of 24 months contract is less that 16 months of actual work IF you take into consideration of holidays and the leave the company provides as well as two return trip a year airfare paid for plus chauffeur.

Setup shop in HK? most FT would avoid as they basically go there to really work. The benefit however is still the Expat "curse" that is there aka the sarong party girls that the wife worries about. Even in SG I believe, its a like a shopping network of lifestyle changes of second or some even go on to having a change to a 3rd wife.

So back to the question. of how much is spent on the housing. It depends on who we are speaking of.

In fact , some shrew FT have chance on the fact that the property market is the best bet for taking a $hit load of money home when they leave this place.

 

[Sdf4786k]

15 hours ago, Kusje said:

How can there be no data? Who is asking if the process is fair? PS is just asking for the data. CS already said he has the data so the rest of it is just obfuscating the matter.

So where's the data?

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/distinguishing-singaporeans-and-non-citizens-will-drive-wedge-society-chee-hong-tat

Looks like or when I read in between the lines, the xenophobic in the society will create a huge outcry 

OR

What is the right number of Citizen VS PR and when did these citizen becomes PR ?

Is 50% Singaporean 50% PR a right number ?

Or 80% Singaporean 20% PR the right number ?

Seems like a loose loose situation as long as there were no known understanding of what constitute a working population.

So we have to place the trust that for the better good of the nation, even if its not the right number, the country comes first.

“In growing our economy, we constantly balance multiple trade-offs, including the extent to which we bring in foreigners to complement our local workforce,” Mr Chee wrote.
 

I however do agree that the above statement is a pragmatic approached. You look at the F&B industry where without a larger FW, some well good establishment had to close. So that is a real problem. Should we then just fest up and say certain group will have more FW than local. Just like the construction industry.

I am sure in the Grab food and deliveroo, if there is a huge influx in FW , than somewhere the loophole will need to be plug, because these workers come in as construction workers and moon light and take away the jobs of PMD wannabes.

There is no winner in the data. But its definitely near to what we have perceived and observe if the data is kept pretty generic. 

And of course comes the question, after you know , what you going to do about it ? line up and compliant to your MP? or reverse the trend ?

After all, its for the better good of the country. I can safely say we on our own. Unless you are impacted or affected by the changing landscape, a vast majority would want to be "politically" correct and continue to navigate to retirement.

I however do ask this question, WSG also helps PR as well as Singaporean. What is the KPI of Singaporean getting back to the workforce. Or , is driving Grab sufficient to meet the KPI.

And if they take out the " no one owes you a living " card, it would be a wake up call for us.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Sdf4786k

[Enye]

13 hours ago, Philipkee said:

That's why I say no data. Or more accurately, no accurate data.

It's like I ask a group of employees to provide the data on how much they work because the CEO wants to know if department is under worked or productive.  They produce the data.  But I highly suspect their canteen breaks and gossips time and tea breaks are not inside cos canteen is always full but the data shows they work 8 hours every day .  So I have no confidence in presenting the data to my CEO on how productive my workers are.  I can ask them to redo the data again and again but I will get same figures.

I can independently audit but its probably only going to be temporary as everyone acts busy when I am around. Unless I really got one auditor per company to just monitor.  Which is impractical.

I have data, but I have no confidence in it.  So I confuse.  Data that you cannot reveal with confidence in its accuracy (cos you must assume that the person you are revealing it to is going to use the figures in planning or going to verify them independently) is no data.

Another example will be smrt. If there is no time for maintenance but all check boxes are always ticked, management should question the data instead of happily accepting it.

My two cents.

this is not data issue but employee issues

why is the company employing and retaining workers with no integrity?

if you are their supervisor, then you better clean up the department 

😅

 

[Playtime]

Basic data like nationality is really basic data... any statistician knows  that. 

If they say they don't have the data..

1. They really don't give a fish.. that says allot. Incompetence. 

2. They have... but "undertable".. so they can say officially unavailable... lie to your face.  

3. Someone instruct them civil servants don't collect.... working against your interest. 

Only solution.. vote wisely

 

[Kusje]

24 minutes ago, Sdf4786k said:

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/distinguishing-singaporeans-and-non-citizens-will-drive-wedge-society-chee-hong-tat

Looks like or when I read in between the lines, the xenophobic in the society will create a huge outcry 

OR

What is the right number of Citizen VS PR and when did these citizen becomes PR ?

Is 50% Singaporean 50% PR a right number ?

Or 80% Singaporean 20% PR the right number ?

Seems like a loose loose situation as long as there were no known understanding of what constitute a working population.

So we have to place the trust that for the better good of the nation, even if its not the right number, the country comes first.

“In growing our economy, we constantly balance multiple trade-offs, including the extent to which we bring in foreigners to complement our local workforce,” Mr Chee wrote.
 

I however do agree that the above statement is a pragmatic approached. You look at the F&B industry where without a larger FW, some well good establishment had to close. So that is a real problem. Should we then just fest up and say certain group will have more FW than local. Just like the construction industry.

I am sure in the Grab food and deliveroo, if there is a huge influx in FW , than somewhere the loophole will need to be plug, because these workers come in as construction workers and moon light and take away the jobs of PMD wannabes.

There is no winner in the data. But its definitely near to what we have perceived and observe if the data is kept pretty generic. 

And of course comes the question, after you know , what you going to do about it ? line up and compliant to your MP? or reverse the trend ?

After all, its for the better good of the country. I can safely say we on our own. Unless you are impacted or affected by the changing landscape, a vast majority would want to be "politically" correct and continue to navigate to retirement.

I however do ask this question, WSG also helps PR as well as Singaporean. What is the KPI of Singaporean getting back to the workforce. Or , is driving Grab sufficient to meet the KPI.

And if they take out the " no one owes you a living " card, it would be a wake up call for us.

Can't distinguish between the two at work but can do it for ns? That one don't cause any wedge?

I know where id like to stuff that wedge up for him

[13177]

3 hours ago, Victor68 said:

You have given them too much credit liao. They aren't 'good' at side tracking questions. They just ignore and decide not to answer, bully. However, if others try to side track or don't answer, then tomorrow it is headline everywhere. 

They are bully for super long liao. Too bad nothing can be done to stop this.

[Playtime]

24 minutes ago, Sdf4786k said:

https://www.todayonline.com/singapore/distinguishing-singaporeans-and-non-citizens-will-drive-wedge-society-chee-hong-tat

Looks like or when I read in between the lines, the xenophobic in the society will create a huge outcry 

OR

What is the right number of Citizen VS PR and when did these citizen becomes PR ?

Is 50% Singaporean 50% PR a right number ?

Or 80% Singaporean 20% PR the right number ?

Seems like a loose loose situation as long as there were no known understanding of what constitute a working population.

So we have to place the trust that for the better good of the nation, even if its not the right number, the country comes first.

 

 

Drive wedge in society?

https://www.theonlinecitizen.com/2015/08/14/chee-hong-tat-now-says-he-supports-learning-of-dialects-in-private/

Well... kinda rich for him to be the one delivering that message... must be about the best prata man in Singapore politics. See what say what. 

 

While at it... what was the whole upgrading policy about? What's aim and ahtc about?

Things have really fallen far...