NS related deaths

[Evillusion]

wow...just wow.

 

and your line of reasoning makes all training deaths legit?

 

nope....i didnt say its legit or it is right. What i am saying is army (conscript or regular) personnel faces a very high chance of a mishap during training. Its just that. Even with tsr followed closely many other things can still go wrong. Its unfortunate this, but no military can say their training are 100% safe. Best is to take care of oneself first.

[Joseph22]

thats why i am quite surprised with guys saying check guidelines check this check that. We dont have freaking time to check all that......men from combat units doesnt have time to read this and that. Just do as what we are told and rest at every opportunity we get. We dont have 5 yrs to train. Ours are compressed army doctrine learning the ropes for only 1 yr 9 month.

They working already forget what is army or they were clerk.

Anyway it’s more of hindsight that people are demanding this and that.

[Evillusion]

if this is proven not true... good luck to the guy who spread lies against a national pillar.

 

and as a friendly view bro... dont regurgitate it...

its all on fb and msm.......even here in mcf.

[SuPerBoRed]

its all on fb and msm.......even here in mcf.

 

it is an unverified accusation about what happened... 

 

just becoz its everywhere doesnt mean its true 

[Evillusion]

They working already forget what is army or they were clerk.

Anyway it’s more of hindsight that people are demanding this and that.

i read somewhere got people became doctors and lawyers while studying in prison.....

[Enye]

nope....i didnt say its legit or it is right. What i am saying is army (conscript or regular) personnel faces a very high chance of a mishap during training. Its just that. Even with tsr followed closely many other things can still go wrong. Its unfortunate this, but no military can say their training are 100% safe. Best is to take care of oneself first.

 

like this better put KBW in charge

 

then he can simply say it's just how statistics work

 

[Evillusion]

it is an unverified accusation about what happened...

 

just becoz its everywhere doesnt mean its true

i get what you mean bro.....its just like the case of my unit's Lancer death.......most of us knows what happened but luckily there wasnt fb around then because if not there will be similar postings and complaints about other men and the controllers. Thanks for the advice........

like this better put KBW in charge

 

then he can simply say it's just how statistics work

 

you wanna bet how the outcome of this case will be like? I dont have any pointers but can take cue from all the saf death cases since it was established! Its just how any army in the world works.......

[Pocus]

I am a soldier from 1 guards. One of our fellow soldiers is currently in critical condition heat stroke (possibly brain dead) due to the reckless behavior of my fellow commanders. I want to bring this to light so that the commanders involved are duly punished and nothing gets hidden as part of the investigation. Dave is still in critical condition in the hospital, and it has almost been one week since the incident. But there have been rumors that his condition is worsening.

 

The night before a 8km fast march (an activity considered high key) our entire recce platoon was turned out after lights out by our sergeants, forcing us to bear crawl to the (Standard Obstacle Course) grounds at Bedok camp, doing their usual tekan (punishment) of making us roll in the sand and have water poured on us, to satisfy their own sadistic pleasure. As a result, we did not have the adequate seven hours of rest mandated by the training safety regulations required for our fast march the next day.

 

1 of the soldiers say the abrove. etc etc

 

http://www.msn.com/en-sg/news/singapore/investigations-launched-into-death-of-nsf-as-mourning-family-seeks-full-explanation-from-saf/ar-AAwCnGE?li=BBr8Cnr&ocid=1PRCDEFE

 

i think all the commander gonna kenna gao gao.

actually is very normal not to have 7 hours of rest before training.( provided nothing gos wrong)

Sorry.. So this is not BMT? It's a recce course?

[Beregond]

it is an unverified accusation about what happened... 

 

just becoz its everywhere doesnt mean its true 

other thing that the soldier mention base on his feeling, we can understand, it might be his pov only.

like he mention his commander laugh at the victim, not well train enough etc etc.

 

but stuff like kenna turn out after lights out to be tekan,

i think stuff like this cannot be fake.

 

this are facts which can be easily verify.

Sorry.. So this is not BMT? It's a recce course?

they having bmt inside 1 guard,  they are the recce plt, it seem.

[SuPerBoRed]

other thing that the soldier mention base on his feeling, we can understand, it might be his pov only.

like he mention his commander laugh at the victim, not well train enough etc etc.

 

but stuff like kenna turn out after lights out to be tekan,

i think stuff like this cannot be fake.

 

this are facts which can be easily verify.

 

1- i make it a point never to believe anyone who dont dare to name themselves in an accusation ...  

2- before you defend the guy saying its a chargeable offence for him to reveal... i remind you that he is going to be traced        eventually.. might as well come out directly.

 

3- I dont speak for the authorities... but to rile up the public displeasure with a national ''service''..

     

i personally think they should investigate thoroughly and publish the result. And in this instance... i think they would.

[Watwheels]

​Then create another name for anyone can shout to halt that particular activity or exercise temporarily should anyone from lowest rank sees anyone life in danger or what.

 

​Like can shout.. Stop stop, life in danger.. and then the activity is stopped temporarily 1st and the senior commander will then go and ask this guy why shout stop stop life in danger ( of whatever name is called). Then let this guy explain, if the guy can explain very clearly another private solider life is in danger. Then good what.. can action on it immediately.

 

​Based on that facebook post, imagine someone Private shout.. Stop Stop, life in danger.. then the senior commander temporary stop the road march and then ask him what happened. Then he explained that this guy looks like heat stroke, SGT and officer should not just leave him like that. Should bring him to the shade and tear open his clothing and send for medical attention immediately. This is better than after the incident happened then voice it out in facebook right? 

 

​Even the sgt, commander, senior commander can learn from a very low rank private, if low rank private sees something that others do not see.

 

​Get what I mean?

 

Got what. Soldier shout out for the medic. Medic! You CB! Where are you?!

 

[RogerNg_185295]

Training death is part and parcel of military life.....it happens everywhere throughout the world. Ours touched the grounds and heart because its a citizen's army and many of the guys had gone through the hardship before.

True. But when the higher level regular career officers are let off without being severely punished, that's what get people worked up

Some "leaders" never apologise. They just move on.

Edited May 2, 2018 by RogerNg_185295

[Camrysfa]

Even an individual will find it very difficult to know whether he is heading for a potentially fatal medical condition. An example is Heng Swee Keat. Why didn't he call a time out before the massive stroke hit? So the question is how can the soldier under training avoid hitting the point of no return. Every time he raises a signal that he is unwell the trainers may discount it and hesitate to call it off.

 

In the animal /insect world some of them play dead to avoid an attack and survive to live on. How can our young men some of whom never had a rugged lifestyle before being thrust into rigorous military training learn from this survival tactic. Would the military teach them how to play dead if need be, although it sounds so absurd.

[Tzc]

Guards Unit are like that.. and it will always be. The aggression they have is kinda norm for them. 

 

 my 90's unit was just beside DB...they have the highest rate of AWOL ...seen their boys going in out of DB is really common.    

 

   obviously  the luck  ran out this time..with  death involved of the famous tekan pattern went wrong . someone just has to take the full blame, probaly by now it's finger pointing among themselves now 

[RadX]

1- i make it a point never to believe anyone who dont dare to name themselves in an accusation ...

2- before you defend the guy saying its a chargeable offence for him to reveal... i remind you that he is going to be traced eventually.. might as well come out directly.

 

3- I dont speak for the authorities... but to rile up the public displeasure with a national ''service''..

 

i personally think they should investigate thoroughly and publish the result. And in this instance... i think they would.

https://www.facebook.com/joelgohch/posts/813949062149243

[Atrecord]

More people come out to slam the unit...

 

https://www.facebook.com/joelgohch/posts/813949062149243

 

 

Joel Goh

Yesterday at 10:38am · 

 

There is a post going around about the Guardsman who just died (https://www.facebook.com/cecilia.yeo.165/posts/10156682082464276), and the gross mismanagement involved in his unfortunate demise. From my own time in Guards, I completely believe its contents.

It's been many years since my stint in the army, and I've refrained from talking about this publicly. But reading the post makes me so angry because, while my own experience never reached such an unfortunate result, I had the same experience in Guards. I know there are many good people in Guards, especially at the higher echelons, but it seems like things on the ground have not changed.

The thing about Guards and perhaps other formations is that they are ruled on the ground by kids — 19/20 year old sergeants who are barely a year older than the men they command. Give these boys a little power, and they get drunk with it. Without proper supervision and discipline, things will get out of hand. These are the people I once overheard saying among themselves, "Honestly ah, I hope we can have war soon. We already train so hard ah, I really hope got war, so we can put what we learn to use leh".

This was my personal experience: It all started with just a fever. I had a fever and had to rest in the bunk on "light duties only" status. Guys on "light duties only" status were required to help with administrative tasks. That may be understandable. But do you know what I had to do that day? Carry a very heavy METAL boat, by hand, with 3 other people who were unwell. It was a boat which could sit 6 men, I think. My superiors knew I was having a fever. While carrying that damn boat, in my feverish state, I twisted my leg and got a meniscus tear in the knee. I got a hospital certificate for my meniscus tear, and awaited a medical board review of my PES status. All my superiors knew about my situation, but everyone talked about it as if I just "chao keng" (malingered). Everything in Guards is just "chao keng". Even when you have a medically certified meniscus tear which gives you a sharp pain in the knee with every single step you take. There were a few other guys in a similar situation as me in my platoon. To our superiors, all of us were just "chao keng". One of my platoon mates went to see the Medical Officer, Doctor Malcolm Tan (a man I shall never forget) for a diagnosis for night blindness. He told my platoon mate to "f**k off". I completely believe my platoon mate. I myself had been told by Dr Malcolm Tan to "get out of [his] room!" once when I gave him a medical certificate to endorse. I instinctively left the room. Then I immediately turned around, knocked the door, and went in again. I asked him if he will take personal responsibility if anything happened to me during the period covered by my MC. He stared at me as if I was asking for a slice of his liver. He snatched my MC, endorsed it, and threw it on the floor. "Take it and get out of my sight", he said.

But I digress. During the period I had a meniscus tear, I continued to be required to do most of the things the rest of the platoon did. My superiors said that this was because my PES status was under review and hadn't changed yet. With a torn meniscus, I had to participate in change parades (which we understood to be illegal in the SAF) — "tekan" sessions in which we had to run up and down the stairs repeatedly to change into different attires in quick succession. I had to do a 1km march in the jungle in full battle order, which means trekking through uneven ground while carrying a huge heavy bag, rifle, etc. I had to participate in an enplaning and deplaning exercise on a helicopter, which involved running through the jungle to board and disembark from a helicopter. I had to "help out" everyday BEFORE AND AFTER these exercises because I was part of the "chao keng" gang who were the resources the army uses to do all the "sai kang" (shit work). Among other things, I had to climb steep hills in the Western Catchment Area to plant target boards for a live firing exercise. This meant waking up way earlier than the rest of the platoon to set up those targets, attending the entire live firing exercise with them, and then staying back to remove those target boards long after the rest of the platoon had gone back to sleep. The people who are unwell in Guards are the people who end up getting the least rest.

All that horrendous mismanagement aside, the sergeants made special effort to strip us of our dignity. We were made to clear the rubbish bins everyday. Once, while walking up the stairs, a sergeant ate a sweet and threw the wrapper IN MY FACE, saying "you guys throw our rubbish for us everyday anyway HAHAHA" and walked away. The sergeants made every medical condition sound like a joke, always insinuating that they were all just a pretence, or that we were weak, or that we were somehow lacking in masculinity. We were called countless names. Every week, when the platoon was granted the incentive of having a nights off (an evening out from camp during the week), we were told we could not go because we "did not contribute to the platoon". When we booked out from camp on weekends, we had to book in on Sunday, earlier than the rest of the Platoon, because we were "needed" to help out with administrative tasks - the sergeants made us clean their own offices for them. We were basically the clowns of the platoon. Of course if all this happened to me now, I would say a big f**k Off to those people. But when you are 18 years old, compelled by the force of the State to serve, and repeatedly reminded that you will be sent to the Detention Barracks for insubordination if you even tried, the only thing you do is bite your tongue and say "Yes, Sergeant".

Ours is a conscription army — none of us ever had a choice whether to serve or not. I had enlisted at BMTC with reservations about NS. My short stint at Guards left me without a doubt as to what I feel towards this institution (regardless of my thoughts on its necessity). Thankfully, I got posted out from Guards after those few months, but the experience I described above is not something one can forget. Many friends talk about their NS experience in positive terms. I usually just keep silent whenever they do that — it's impossible to explain why I hated NS without sounding like a petty or lazy person, unless I go the whole way to explain the full extent of the injustice and indignity I had to experience in those months. In our alpha male culture engendered by NS, complaining about NS is often derided as inadequacy of some sort. I have no doubt that those friends of mine had a positive experience in NS, especially if they were officers. I've attended commission parades before and was amazed at how much pomp is involved and how much resources are expended just to dignify their status. It's ridiculous how different our experiences have to be — at the end of the day, aren't we all just here to serve our country?

 

[Enye]

oops the doc won't be able to sleep the next few nights i guess?

 

[Evillusion]

True. But when the higher level regular career officers are let off without being severely punished, that's what get people worked up

Some "leaders" never apologise. They just move on.

its the way of the military......they wont change because they cant! Training men to kill or die is not easy and the only difference, ours is a conscript army.

There was a starhub series called 'The long Road Home'......a mother made the co/oc promised to take care of her son and made sure he will come back home safe. He did promised but knew deep dowm inside it is impossible to guarantee it 100%. The boy died and he went on with his career........it was based on a true story.

That was why i was really against my son signing on as a regular yrs back.....he signed-on behind my back and i can only tell him to just take care of himself 1st as a piece of advise.