Galantspeedz Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 4231 can be pretty attacking if the set up is right. If I set up my team in this formation, my fullback will be require to do a lot of overlapping and attacking. Crosses will most likely come from them too. So if the best man for the job uses this formation, Clyne and Moreno should be the preferred choice for full back role and allow the 2 defensive midfielders to cover for them when needed. The term defensive midfielder was created because of the no. 10 role. Teams that like to have one main striker and the other "striker" having a free role between the lines of midfields and forwards can create chance and space to attack from there. If the centre back follow the no. 10 to mark him, there will be gaps in the centre defence and allow attacking midfielders to run from deep to exploit the gap. That's why a defensive midfielder comes into play. Not only that, it helps to control the centre circle and pull strings from there. Players like David batty and French coach didier deschamps though not very skillful but their ball keeping, simple passing and tackling and ability to sense danger are important for this role. Such players do not need to have outstanding passing or goal scoring ability. In recent times some managers start to believe you don't really need such players as the game has envoled into a more dynamic style where even the most skillful have to do pressing, wingers must have the ability to run up and down to protect the flanks and double up as strikers when needed as most teams play with one real striker. Quickly get the ball back and hit the opponent before they get their team shape back. Having defensive midfielders are more about controlling and possessions as well what I mentioned earlier. My view is since the best man for the job doesn't believe in having defensive midfielder, go for dynamic box to box midfielders instead. Can and Milner can do that and are more suited for such role. can, milner and allen are hardworking midfielders...... if you have 3 of them... pool won't need a CDM but they have to know when 2 go forward... the other will have to stay back to cover........... ↡ Advertisement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrmilktooth Supercharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 can, milner and allen are hardworking midfielders...... if you have 3 of them... pool won't need a CDM but they have to know when 2 go forward... the other will have to stay back to cover........... i suppork gunners to beat pool next game!!.. and to win the title 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osprey23 Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 Interesting you mention 4-3-3, means only 1 holding MF right? I brought this up cos I read Fabregas being accused of being too weak defensively to partner Matic and thus caused Chelsea's defence to be exposed against City on Sunday. My take is 1 holding MF (DM) is sufficient but these days most teams play 2 in a 4-2-3-1 formation which is the favoured formation of most teams. Whilst 4-3-3 is a different set-up altogether, it is more attacking than 4-2-3-1 I feel and I personally like it if you have the right players for it. My point is do you really need 2 Dms? I know the standard answer would be depends on who you playing but still feel 2 DMs not really necessary. Your views and anyone else's for that matter? In the 4-2-3-1 formation, we generally refers the two central midfielders as twin pivots. Generally speaking, out of the two, only one is defensive minded. For example, Matic for Chelsea and Fernandinho for City. The other central midfielder is playing a totally different role, like a deep lying playmaker or a b2b that support the attack. How to decide whether to use a deep lying playmaker or b2b, will depend on your 10. Is he the creator 10 or scoring 10. Most team now are having creator 10 and hence a b2b to support and provide option. Good example of scoring 10 and DLP? Gerrard - Alonso. Ok, now back to Fab and the midfield match up for the game: Fernandinho v Willian (DM vs 10) Silva v Matic (10 vs DM) Yaya v Fab (battle of the b2b) The last match is the one that Chelsea lost out on but to be fair to Fab, not many can match Yaya when he is on form. So it is harsh to blame the fragility on Fab. When match up is at disadvantage, it is left to the manager to work out alternative to counter balance it. Is 4-3-3 a more offensive formation than 4-2-3-1, my answer is no. As mentioned before, formation itself does not set the offensive and defensive tone. In fact, this two formations is very similar, main difference is the midfield triangle. 2-1 triangle you are 4-2-3-1, 1-2 triangle, you are 4-3-3. In my reply to bro fooblack, I want a 4-3-3 because I want a dedicated DM in Can to track Ozil. If we are to leave it Milner and Hendo to rotate, it is very risky. In fact, if I can have a say, I will go 4-3-2-1 with Coutinho and Firmino tugging in and Milner, Hendo going wide against their fullbacks. Sacrificing width but better support if we are going long to Benteke. My apology for the long post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galantspeedz Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 i suppork gunners to beat pool next game!!.. and to win the title you money supporter.......... nbz In the 4-2-3-1 formation, we generally refers the two central midfielders as twin pivots. Generally speaking, out of the two, only one is defensive minded. For example, Matic for Chelsea and Fernandinho for City. The other central midfielder is playing a totally different role, like a deep lying playmaker or a b2b that support the attack. How to decide whether to use a deep lying playmaker or b2b, will depend on your 10. Is he the creator 10 or scoring 10. Most team now are having creator 10 and hence a b2b to support and provide option. Good example of scoring 10 and DLP? Gerrard - Alonso. Ok, now back to Fab and the midfield match up for the game: Fernandinho v Willian (DM vs 10) Silva v Matic (10 vs DM) Yaya v Fab (battle of the b2b) The last match is the one that Chelsea lost out on but to be fair to Fab, not many can match Yaya when he is on form. So it is harsh to blame the fragility on Fab. When match up is at disadvantage, it is left to the manager to work out alternative to counter balance it. Is 4-3-3 a more offensive formation than 4-2-3-1, my answer is no. As mentioned before, formation itself does not set the offensive and defensive tone. In fact, this two formations is very similar, main difference is the midfield triangle. 2-1 triangle you are 4-2-3-1, 1-2 triangle, you are 4-3-3. In my reply to bro fooblack, I want a 4-3-3 because I want a dedicated DM in Can to track Ozil. If we are to leave it Milner and Hendo to rotate, it is very risky. In fact, if I can have a say, I will go 4-3-2-1 with Coutinho and Firmino tugging in and Milner, Hendo going wide against their fullbacks. Sacrificing width but better support if we are going long to Benteke. My apology for the long post give chance leh.... 3rd game of season nia..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osprey23 Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 can, milner and allen are hardworking midfielders...... if you have 3 of them... pool won't need a CDM but they have to know when 2 go forward... the other will have to stay back to cover........... Might work for weaker side but if you face team with a top No10, such a rotation system is not ideal. Players like Silva, Ozil only need one chance to set up that killer goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galantspeedz Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 Might work for weaker side but if you face team with a top No10, such a rotation system is not ideal. Players like Silva, Ozil only need one chance to set up that killer goal. no need worry about ozil...... we need a lot of chances to score 1 goal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Moderator August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 4231 can be pretty attacking if the set up is right. If I set up my team in this formation, my fullback will be require to do a lot of overlapping and attacking. Crosses will most likely come from them too. So if the best man for the job uses this formation, Clyne and Moreno should be the preferred choice for full back role and allow the 2 defensive midfielders to cover for them when needed. The term defensive midfielder was created because of the no. 10 role. Teams that like to have one main striker and the other "striker" having a free role between the lines of midfields and forwards can create chance and space to attack from there. If the centre back follow the no. 10 to mark him, there will be gaps in the centre defence and allow attacking midfielders to run from deep to exploit the gap. That's why a defensive midfielder comes into play. Not only that, it helps to control the centre circle and pull strings from there. Players like David batty and French coach didier deschamps though not very skillful but their ball keeping, simple passing and tackling and ability to sense danger are important for this role. Such players do not need to have outstanding passing or goal scoring ability. In recent times some managers start to believe you don't really need such players as the game has envoled into a more dynamic style where even the most skillful have to do pressing, wingers must have the ability to run up and down to protect the flanks and double up as strikers when needed as most teams play with one real striker. Quickly get the ball back and hit the opponent before they get their team shape back. Having defensive midfielders are more about controlling and possessions as well what I mentioned earlier. My view is since the best man for the job doesn't believe in having defensive midfielder, go for dynamic box to box midfielders instead. Can and Milner can do that and are more suited for such role. Thks for your view, interesting and analytical! My point was not so much on Pool exclusively but general thoughts on DMs. Take Chelsea for example, their middle 2 comprise of a real DM (Matic) and a deep lying creator (Fabregas). Thought it's a good set up and nicely balanced for them cos they have the players for it. Lost 0-3 to City and Jamie Carragher lambasted Fabregas for not providing enough cover for the defence. I don't expect a deep lying creator to be sound defensively although obviously it helps. The great Pirlo is a prime example, need him for his creativity and not ball winning skills. That said, I can see Carragher's reasoning that Matic couldn't handle Toure and Siva single handedly and thus Fab had to help out. But my point is where do you draw the line? One DM insufficient? Guess against the stronger teams 2 DMs would be better but that's going to come at the expense of a creator. I don't see the need to have 2 DMs in general which leads to the 4-3-3 formation. By Carragher's logic, 4-3-3 against City would be a no-go. I know systems are just a number and even in a 4-3-3 formation, the other 2 MFs can help out but the mindset of the 2 is more attacking than defensive. Anyway, I just wanted to hear views from you guys on this. So feel free to comment, cheers!! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3201338/Cesc-Fabregas-fantastic-player-t-defend-lacks-tactical-intelligence-claims-Jamie-Carragher.html 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shorty Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 wah u all write analysis so long one. like read newspaper article for me is simple...go for the win in every game. even if on paper u don stand a chance. cos on the pitch u nvr know. Can, hendo n milner in the middle 3. ibe, coutinho n benteke upfront. ibe to run at the defenders all he can. then 2nd half bring in firmino. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Moderator August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 In the 4-2-3-1 formation, we generally refers the two central midfielders as twin pivots. Generally speaking, out of the two, only one is defensive minded. For example, Matic for Chelsea and Fernandinho for City. The other central midfielder is playing a totally different role, like a deep lying playmaker or a b2b that support the attack. How to decide whether to use a deep lying playmaker or b2b, will depend on your 10. Is he the creator 10 or scoring 10. Most team now are having creator 10 and hence a b2b to support and provide option. Good example of scoring 10 and DLP? Gerrard - Alonso. Ok, now back to Fab and the midfield match up for the game: Fernandinho v Willian (DM vs 10) Silva v Matic (10 vs DM) Yaya v Fab (battle of the b2b) The last match is the one that Chelsea lost out on but to be fair to Fab, not many can match Yaya when he is on form. So it is harsh to blame the fragility on Fab. When match up is at disadvantage, it is left to the manager to work out alternative to counter balance it. Is 4-3-3 a more offensive formation than 4-2-3-1, my answer is no. As mentioned before, formation itself does not set the offensive and defensive tone. In fact, this two formations is very similar, main difference is the midfield triangle. 2-1 triangle you are 4-2-3-1, 1-2 triangle, you are 4-3-3. In my reply to bro fooblack, I want a 4-3-3 because I want a dedicated DM in Can to track Ozil. If we are to leave it Milner and Hendo to rotate, it is very risky. In fact, if I can have a say, I will go 4-3-2-1 with Coutinho and Firmino tugging in and Milner, Hendo going wide against their fullbacks. Sacrificing width but better support if we are going long to Benteke. My apology for the long post Thks for your reply! Interesting as well esp the triangle explanation Sorry have to talk more on Chelsea today cos the City v Chelsea game was interesting tactically and Mourinho being accused of getting his tactics wrong and being naïve! http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/patrick-barclay-naive-mourinho-got-his-tactics-all-wrong-and-chelsea-were-mauled-by-manchester-city-a2871306.html Not often you can take shots at the Special One but guess last Sunday was strange. Didn't expect Ramires to play on the right but could be JM thinks he can help out Ivanovic? Back to Pool and I do agree not a good idea to rotate Hendo and Milner. Look at Lampard/Gerrard for England, several England Mgrs say they are 2 of the most intelligent players around and could work in the middle when 1 goes up, the other stays down so should compliment each other. We all know how it panned out!! In short Hendo/Milner should nvr be the 2 in the 4-2-3-1 formation, I can only see them playing in the middle in a 4-3-3 formation with a DM (Can/Lucas). 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Moderator August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 wah u all write analysis so long one. like read newspaper article for me is simple...go for the win in every game. even if on paper u don stand a chance. cos on the pitch u nvr know. Can, hendo n milner in the middle 3. ibe, coutinho n benteke upfront. ibe to run at the defenders all he can. then 2nd half bring in firmino. Shorty article, short and sweet We write so long cos we all trying to write thesis to get EPL job, Sunderland also can haha 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bismarck Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 Thks for your view, interesting and analytical! My point was not so much on Pool exclusively but general thoughts on DMs. Take Chelsea for example, their middle 2 comprise of a real DM (Matic) and a deep lying creator (Fabregas). Thought it's a good set up and nicely balanced for them cos they have the players for it. Lost 0-3 to City and Jamie Carragher lambasted Fabregas for not providing enough cover for the defence. I don't expect a deep lying creator to be sound defensively although obviously it helps. The great Pirlo is a prime example, need him for his creativity and not ball winning skills. That said, I can see Carragher's reasoning that Matic couldn't handle Toure and Siva single handedly and thus Fab had to help out. But my point is where do you draw the line? One DM insufficient? Guess against the stronger teams 2 DMs would be better but that's going to come at the expense of a creator. I don't see the need to have 2 DMs in general which leads to the 4-3-3 formation. By Carragher's logic, 4-3-3 against City would be a no-go. I know systems are just a number and even in a 4-3-3 formation, the other 2 MFs can help out but the mindset of the 2 is more attacking than defensive. Anyway, I just wanted to hear views from you guys on this. So feel free to comment, cheers!! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3201338/Cesc-Fabregas-fantastic-player-t-defend-lacks-tactical-intelligence-claims-Jamie-Carragher.html I feel whether to play 4231 or 433, one defensive midfielder or 2, first and foremost, doesn't depend on the opposing team first, it depends on your own team first. That's my thinking if I am a coach. For example, if I know that the spine in the team is weak, I will have to cover this weakness first before we talk about the opponent. If I feel my team is not so good at passing and keeping the ball, I will play more over the top ball, more counter attack, emphasize more on set plays etc. more disruptive play rather than proper football. So if I am a coach, I will always look at my team's strength and weakness first, rather than what system or formation I want to deploy according to my preference, then occasionally alter a bit with tactics when looking at who is the opponent. So it depends on your philosophy if you are a coach. No right or wrong. Carra is looking at usually how strong man city is in attack, and for some reason Chelsea is not functioning as well, made that comment. Coz usually the special one like to set up his team 4231, more defensively against good team in any matches. And usually with matic as the main defensive midfield and fab as the string puller should be good enough. I didn't watch the match so I can't really comment what went wrong. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spring Moderator August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 I feel whether to play 4231 or 433, one defensive midfielder or 2, first and foremost, doesn't depend on the opposing team first, it depends on your own team first. That's my thinking if I am a coach. For example, if I know that the spine in the team is weak, I will have to cover this weakness first before we talk about the opponent. If I feel my team is not so good at passing and keeping the ball, I will play more over the top ball, more counter attack, emphasize more on set plays etc. more disruptive play rather than proper football. So if I am a coach, I will always look at my team's strength and weakness first, rather than what system or formation I want to deploy according to my preference, then occasionally alter a bit with tactics when looking at who is the opponent. So it depends on your philosophy if you are a coach. No right or wrong. Carra is looking at usually how strong man city is in attack, and for some reason Chelsea is not functioning as well, made that comment. Coz usually the special one like to set up his team 4231, more defensively against good team in any matches. And usually with matic as the main defensive midfield and fab as the string puller should be good enough. I didn't watch the match so I can't really comment what went wrong. Are you Wenger in disguise? Previously, Wenger never cared about the opponents and just focused on his teams strength. That's his philosophy, not really wrong I guess but can see him changing these days. Rafa and JM, the opposite; set up their teams depending on who the opponent is. Souness theory on JM is that he sending a msg to Roman by taking out Terry and also bringing on Cuadrado. But that's conspiracy theory at its highest haha!! I don't think so lah....... 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yuan 6th Gear August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 My prediction:- MANU MANC ARSENAL LIVERPOOL CHELSEA- Mourine got sacked... LOL This is too optimistic liao. Man Utd will never be first this season. Man City will take the honor. Maureen is distracted by Eva and probably the dangling carrot from Munich to take over the biggest German league team in 2016/2017 when Gorilla leaves. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Getzsfv 5th Gear August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 Sorry bro but are you an Liverpool fan? wahahahahaah, u are sharp bro... This is too optimistic liao. Man Utd will never be first this season. Man City will take the honor. Maureen is distracted by Eva and probably the dangling carrot from Munich to take over the biggest German league team in 2016/2017 when Gorilla leaves. I always very optimistic.. In reality, can go UCL tan dio liao.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bismarck Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 Are you Wenger in disguise? Previously, Wenger never cared about the opponents and just focused on his teams strength. That's his philosophy, not really wrong I guess but can see him changing these days. Rafa and JM, the opposite; set up their teams depending on who the opponent is. Souness theory on JM is that he sending a msg to Roman by taking out Terry and also bringing on Cuadrado. But that's conspiracy theory at its highest haha!! I don't think so lah....... Haha no I am not. I don't just look at my team's strength, I also look at the weakness, and I don't have wenger's romantic view of how football should be play. I am more pragmatic . I can tell you some of my favourite managers are Rafa, ancelotti, Shankly, paisley, rehhagel, rinus Michel, clough, happel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Osprey23 Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 Are you Wenger in disguise? Previously, Wenger never cared about the opponents and just focused on his teams strength. That's his philosophy, not really wrong I guess but can see him changing these days. Rafa and JM, the opposite; set up their teams depending on who the opponent is. Souness theory on JM is that he sending a msg to Roman by taking out Terry and also bringing on Cuadrado. But that's conspiracy theory at its highest haha!! I don't think so lah....... Beg to differ a bit bro. Wenger is very confident on his team's ability to attack and hence, leveraging on that get results. Nullifying the opponent is not high on his priority. JM and Rafa will still put forth their teams in a system which will bring out the strength of his team but will make tactical tweaks to nullify the opponents' threats in their tactical plans. Never a wholesale change to tackle any opponent. In fact, iirc, Rafa is a 4-2-3-1 guy and had used this formation to start most if not all of his games. The tweaks are mainly on who to start and any specific instructions to certain player. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galantspeedz Turbocharged August 18, 2015 Share August 18, 2015 Sounds more like ossie ardiles to me lol 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxus-MIFA9 Supersonic August 20, 2015 Author Share August 20, 2015 Match 3 Saturday, 22/08/2015 7.45pm ManU vs Newcastle 10.00pm 1. Crystal Palace vs Aston Villa 2. Leicester City vs Spurs 3. Norwich City vs Stoke City 4. Sunderland vs Swansea 5. West Ham vs AFC Bournemouth Sunday 23/08/2015 08.30pm West Bromwich vs Chelsea 11.00pm 1. Everton vs ManCity 2. Watford vs Southamton Monday 24/08/2015 3.00am' Arsenal vs Liverpool. ↡ Advertisement 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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