KPE/MCE tunnel good for cycling?

[Tedlhw]

 

It's a twofold difficulty - the first is in accurate identification of the correct cyclist, and the second is in "recalling / proving" it wasn't you. Bikes have a different usage pattern to cars that makes both of the above far far more difficult. Cars are a LOT more identifiable than bikes - not least of which because they require a key and have security - anybody at almost anytime can ride a bike - which goes double if the plate is a clip on style .

The market would be flooded with counterfeit plates - and if someone copies my plate - it will be a real challenge to challenge any CCTV footage - with a car it is a very different thing

I beg to differ. In fact cars are a lot harder to proving it wasn't you driving the car. If the angle is bad, the light is reflected or the windows are simply tinted. With a bike, speeds are slower, no windows, no reflective lights, no tinting. I dare say any CCTV footage of a bicycle will be much more identifiable. I have seen on news where 12 year old kids drive a car, albeit illegally. So can i say anyone can drive?

Then I challenge you back - how much is the safety benefit? Can you achieve the same benefit with a lower spend? I would say two things

a) a safety benefit from an easily faked plate is minimal, it's not going to change many behaviours - what will change behaviour is strong enforcement - and for strong enforcement - is a plate really required? And then strong enforcement comes with a lot of expenditure

-For strong enforcement a plate IS required. If not how to enforce?

Safety is measured in lives. If by more enforcement, just one less cyclist gets killed, simply because they are forced to obey traffic rules.

So 1 life worth how much?

Is that good enough?

You can claim that - but again - how many cyclists have there been on the expressways? Is the problem really so prevalent that you need to introduce such an expensive and cumbersome policy as personal registration for bikes to stop it?

And even if you do have the registration, how many of the "expressway cyclists" cases will it stop? I don't think it would have made a single bit of difference to the recent case of the large group on the expressway for example

$80? Expensive and cumbersome? OK, you win..I have seen cyclist cycling on expressway at least 10 times, this is the first time in such a big group.

If i did have registration, well at least many of them would have been fined.

The group could have been tracked down and the organiser censured.

Will they do it again and again? Maybe. Will they think twice? Most likely.

How many hit and runs are there from cyclists?

How much damage is caused by these hit and runs?

You are proposing a rather drastic and somewhat draconian policy - there is an onus on you to at least provide some sort of reliable figures for the size of the problem.

I have viewed one and experienced it twice.

If you want to count a paint job for my LS 460 door panel? Maybe around $400.

The replacement cracked side mirror on my Volvo S60, $400.

The dented SUV door that i saw at east coast? not sure, definitely not cheap.

I am very sure many such instances go unreported.

 

Nobody has any figures, because there's no point making a report.

You go to LTA also wont have. Why?

NO number plate how to report?

The irresponsible cyclists do NOT want to be registered.

If you are fully prepared to comply with traffic rules, why be afraid?

If you're using that as a metric - then you will also have to introduce pedestrian registration plates as well

How is "rudeness" a cost? You really want to require upwards of 2 million people to register as cyclists, pay an $80 fee to stop "flipping the bird"?

And how is stopping people from "flipping the bird" working out for car drivers - they still do it, and do it frequently despite be registered and licensed - which would show me that registration won't work towards solving this.

I have seen people being charged in court for showing rude signs. Do you frequently do it? I don't. so what are you saying?

I don't really want to go to the police station for flipping the bird, especially when my car number is in full view. I can be stomped, I can tracked, especially with an identifying number plate.

You mean there are 2 million cyclist in Singapore? Where are your numbers from? Just cause there are 2 million means they should not be licensed? Wheres the logic of that?

I would argue that precisely because there are (assuming you are right) 2 million cyclist, there should be proper control!

If only 1% of these 2million cyclist are errant, that means that we have 20,000 cyclist running amok on our roads at any time!

I'd contend that most (upwards of 95%) of "riding against traffic" is more about ignorance than fear of being caught / ticketed.

Most people that do this swear up and down that it is "safer"

-Riding against traffic is safer? And due to ignorance?

Let me tell that to the LTA or TP and when i get caught for doing that.

Let you know how that works out.

Also, where you get your data from? 95%?

How many cyclist who frequently cycle against traffic you interviewed?

In the last 24 months, how many injuries were caused by bicycle / pedestrian accidents?

How much damage was caused by the same

What were the injuries?

Very good question i say. No number plate how to report? Hit and run how to report?

Fix on number plates and you can start to track this.

With an add on question - if "wheelchairs hitting pedestrians" occurs at a similar rate to cyclists, are you also going to require wheelchair registration?

-I dunno, maybe. Got 2 million people in wheelchairs? i dont have numbers. Do you?

3. The easier it is to "clip on, clip off" plate, the less worth it is, because the more common will be counterfit and cheating.

And here's the question - how is you taking "good care" of your plate going to stop someone from copying it?

-Did your car plate number get copied?

4. A car with fake plate already take three years - can you imagine how long a bike with fake plate will take to get caught? Can you imagine the logistics involved in checking on plate ownership?

Of course got effort - enforcement = effort + cost.

No enforcement no point

-No plate how to enforce? Can you enlighten us with a superior method? You have been dissing this suggested idea, so what's yours?

Or is it just no need to enforce?

It's not that cannot be done -

it's that there are two broad problems

a) the cost would far outweigh the benefits - especially if compared against other ways to achieve the same ends, so it is not good policy-As above

b) The cost would have a disproportionate effect on the least well off sector of society - as a car driver, it is not much of a problem to "afford" $200-300 or more a year in tracking and enforcement of VRN, as a bike owner who needs a bike to commute $200-$300 a year is likely to be a (relatively) large proportion of their income.

-Wanna use the road, pay $80 one time to register. When did we talk about recurrent charges?

Of course got ongoing cost to keep database up to date, when plate gets damaged, for new cyclists -

who is going to pay the ongoing cost?

Erm, when my laptop get damaged due to my own use, erm.... myself? Or you going to pay for me?

Two many are seeing the solution through the eyes of car ownership, which is wrong.

I am seeing it from the eyes of shared road usage. Why are some road users more equal than others?

The point was, and is - when viewed through the eyes of overall ownership cost, keeping track of car registration is a very very small cost for car owners.

When viewed through the eyes of overall cost for bike ownership, any sort of registration system is going to by orders of magnitude greater as a portion of purchase price for bikes. And that is before taking into account the relative wealth of each segment - those cycling for commuting are overwhelmingly the least well off - so any extra costs to this segment have to take into account overall social impacts

-I disagree on that. I think you also need to come up with the numbers.

I happen to personally know a cyclist whose net worth is excess of S$150M.

My assistant earned 120k last year and he cycles.

So whats your solution? No enforcement and leave it as it is?

I've been in the situation before where even buying a $200 bike was a big decision, but it was needed for my work, if someone is in that situation to then ask them to pay more money for registration is pushing them down - not helping them up.

 

 

[Darryn]

 

I'm on my phone so can't respond to all properly.

 

I just can't escape this feeling that you're approaching this from the "lycra brigade" and forgetting the auntie / uncle / student / construction worker.

 

In near to 30 years of driving from me, and 25 from my wife we have never been knocked by a bike. Before imposing costly and cumbersome restrictions on cyclists I need to see a lot more evidence that hit and run from bikes is a significant problem AND that your registration scheme will make a noticeable difference.

 

As to "one life saved" ... Do you have anything to show that registration will save lives?

 

A faster simpler and cheaper fix that would save more lives is mandatory helmet wearing.

[Nzy]

Is hit-and-run from cyclists really common? I just came back from the workshop and happened to be surfing MCF while waiting there. The workshop boss told me he rarely encounter people who have to repair their cars cuz a bicycle hit them. Hit-and-run by other cars is alot more common.

 

Where will be a good place to put the plate so that it is easily visible? How big should it be so that it can be seen from far? If its too small, enforcement also hard cuz it might not be captured clearly. But then if the plate is too big, how to fit on those bikes where there is no space to mount a plate?

Edited April 10, 2015 by Nzy

[Darryn]

This is basically my question.

 

Is the problem big enough to justify the solution?

 

On top of that, will a removable plate even be effective way of doing it?

Is hit-and-run from cyclists really common? I just came back from the workshop and happened to be surfing MCF while waiting there. The workshop boss told me he rarely encounter people who have to repair their cars cuz a bicycle hit them. Hit-and-run by other cars is alot more common.

 

Where will be a good place to put the plate so that it is easily visible? How big should it be so that it can be seen from far? If its too small, enforcement also hard cuz it might not be captured clearly. But then if the plate is too big, how to fit on those bikes where there is no space to mount a plate?

[Tedlhw]

Is hit-and-run from cyclists really common? I just came back from the workshop and happened to be surfing MCF while waiting there. The workshop boss told me he rarely encounter people who have to repair their cars cuz a bicycle hit them. Hit-and-run by other cars is alot more common.

 

Where will be a good place to put the plate so that it is easily visible? How big should it be so that it can be seen from far? If its too small, enforcement also hard cuz it might not be captured clearly. But then if the plate is too big, how to fit on those bikes where there is no space to mount a plate?

Not an engineer I don't know about placement . It's about the policy first and foremost.

He's right . My lexus need respray only not repair. Not sprayed yet. Happy to show u if u want to see. My volvo need replacement for the cover.

No panel beating. When I honked, one time I got a finger, the other time the bugger just cycled against traffic and ran away.

[Tedlhw]

This is basically my question.

 

Is the problem big enough to justify the solution?

 

On top of that, will a removable plate even be effective way of doing it?

That is flawed logic.

It'slike saying, "How big is the drug problem in Singapore? Do we even need the CNB when Singapore probably has less than 5000 drug users. "

 

Or " how big is the fake medicine/food problem? Do we even need the HSA? We should fire them and save costs, since thereare probably less than 100 ppeople making fake medicine. No point to enforce. "

 

I am not saying my solution is the best or good.

The premise is the same. All road users should be identifiable, accountable and adhere to traffic rules.

[Nzy]

Not an engineer I don't know about placement . It's about the policy first and foremost.

He's right . My lexus need respray only not repair. Not sprayed yet. Happy to show u if u want to see. My volvo need replacement for the cover.

No panel beating. When I honked, one time I got a finger, the other time the bugger just cycled against traffic and ran away.

 

No need to see cuz I think its quite unlucky you encounter so many times. The workshop I go to does respray also. I was there to respray my bumper cuz a motorcyclist hit my bumper and rode off. Got the license plate of the motorcyclist on video but the rider denied and say he never hit my car.

 

Btw, I am not against registration of cyclists. I am just saying the govt probably won't do it. Cuz it isn't a huge problem and it doesn't really threaten the lives of other people plus there are many things they have to do to ensure it is effective that it probably isn't cost efficient for the benefits if any that registration of cyclists will bring.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Nzy

[Tedlhw]

This is basically my question.

 

Is the problem big enough to justify the solution?

 

On top of that, will a removable plate even be effective way of doing it?

That is flawed logic.

It'slike saying, "How big is the drug problem in Singapore? Do we even need the CNB when Singapore probably has less than 5000 drug users. "

 

Or " how big is the fake medicine/food problem? Do we even need the HSA? We should fire them and save costs, since thereare probably less than 100 ppeople making fake medicine. No point to enforce. "

 

I am not saying my solution is the best or good.

The premise is the same. All road users should be identifiable, accountable and adhere to traffic rules.

[Yewheng]

That is flawed logic.

It'slike saying, "How big is the drug problem in Singapore? Do we even need the CNB when Singapore probably has less than 5000 drug users. "

 

Or " how big is the fake medicine/food problem? Do we even need the HSA? We should fire them and save costs, since thereare probably less than 100 ppeople making fake medicine. No point to enforce. "

 

I am not saying my solution is the best or good.

The premise is the same. All road users should be identifiable, accountable and adhere to traffic rules.

Understand a lot people concern. But ultimately cost is still the main consideration. Cannot be because of few % of rotten apple that everyone suffers. To implement license plate for cyclist is not an easy task and the cost will be massive. Plus, there are just too many bicycle, be it from expensive one that cost 5 digit figure to maybe sell 50bucks also no one want to buy that kind of super lok kok bicycle. Plus cyclist from young to old, young can be as young as 4 to 5 yrs old, old can be even up to 70plus 80 yrs old. So its not feasible.

 

One think I can think of us to target certain group. Those that are professional to semi-professuoal cyclist whose bikes cost at least 1k and above and most likely they will ride road bike to have a kick start 1st. As can see actually quite a lot of those who ignore road traffic are those tour de France type. They also ride a lot faster then those ah pek, and actually post more threat then those who cycle for leisure.

 

That being said there is also another group which is of high danger from the way they cycle. They are those young planks probably in teenagers till 20plus still having a lot of fun will gather in group and cycle like their own grandfather road at wee hours. So perhaps those are the one that is also very difficult to implement as license plate for bicycle, do you think they care? There are just too many considerations that make it not feasible.

 

Anyway a lot of people keep complaint cost of leaving keep rising right? Every small little thing that government implement because of people complain but because of small % of rotten apple that cause great concern. The cost goes up. So cannot always ask government implement this implement that where cost is not justifiable if not general public will suffer more instead in terms of cost of living.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Yewheng

[inlinesix]

Car price will not drop at least next 5 yrs. More more ppl may not afford to drive. There will be more more bicycle on the road. We have only a few alternative:

1. Loon;

2. Engage TP/LTA; or

3. KPKB.

 

If any of you see bicycle on expressway, call 999 immediately. It is for public safety. Show bideo after that no use 1.