Darryn Turbocharged April 9, 2015 Share April 9, 2015 On 4/8/2015 at 2:06 AM, Nzy said: Yeah. Probably will charge a registration fee. But how much to charge? An IU is $150 which is around 0.15% of a 100k car. So those aunties and uncles riding bikes as a form of transportation can't ride on the roads anymore unless the fee is affordable. Maybe also 0.15% of the average price of a bicycle. Well 0.15% of $100 is 15 cents On 4/9/2015 at 8:40 AM, Nzy said: You are right. But you think the govt wants to look like an ass doing that? Making the cheapest mode of transport expensive also? Whats wrong with making more money? On 4/9/2015 at 8:23 AM, Detach8 said: cannot afford -- then don't cycle on the road. simple as that. i don't want to be an ass but i feel that being an ass sometimes is the right thing to do. There would also be the issue of social justice to consider - a fairly good proportion of the "less well off" DO rely on bicycles for day to day life and commuting - if you shut them out from even the most basic form of getting around - is it really something that you want to do. you would also need to ask yourself if the enforcement costs is really the best way to spend the money that would be required - enforcement would be difficult and expensive, would there be other ways of spending the same money and effort that will give a better outcome? ↡ Advertisement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrianli Hypersonic April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/9/2015 at 9:59 AM, Davidtch said: How to ensure that every single bicycle already on the road registered? How to ensure that every new bicycle going on the road is registered? Look at e-bicycle case. Merchant supposed to export illegal e-bike out of Sg. Unfortunely, all these illegal e-bike end up on Sg road. Are we gonna end up in similar situation when bicycle registration is implemented? I have no issue with registration. I only have issue when the relevant authority does not follow through the process & enforce it. No need every single bicycle to be registered if not riding on the road. Same for cars. Not every car in SG is registered for use on our roads. Enforcement wise, leave it to LTA and the Police. I am not LTA or the Police. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedlhw 5th Gear April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 Actually I think u all are just over thinking things. All we need is, if u want to cycle on roads, register a VRN that is tagged to your name/IC number. Probably cost nothing much to register, and probably $30-50 for the number plates. This VRN can be used for all your bicycles that u want to use for cycling on roads. It's just about aaccountability. The lack of a VRN allows the worst behaviour possible, the way people will behave if they think no one is looking or nobody checking..A lot like behaviour on the Internet. No accountability. Anyhow hoot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inlinesix Hypersonic April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 2:05 AM, Tedlhw said: Actually I think u all are just over thinking things. All we need is, if u want to cycle on roads, register a VRN that is tagged to your name/IC number. Probably cost nothing much to register, and probably $30-50 for the number plates. This VRN can be used for all your bicycles that u want to use for cycling on roads. It's just about aaccountability. The lack of a VRN allows the worst behaviour possible, the way people will behave if they think no one is looking or nobody checking..A lot like behaviour on the Internet. No accountability. Anyhow hoot. I have no issue with your idea. Unfortunately, who gonna enforce it? Juz look at e-bike. A lot of e-bike on the road is illegal (i.e. supposed to be export or not tagged by inspection centre). Has the relevant authority being diligent to enforce? W/o enforcement from relevant authority, what's the point of having another rule? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detach8 5th Gear April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 2:28 AM, Davidtch said: I have no issue with your idea. Unfortunately, who gonna enforce it? Juz look at e-bike. A lot of e-bike on the road is illegal (i.e. supposed to be export or not tagged by inspection centre). Has the relevant authority being diligent to enforce? W/o enforcement from relevant authority, what's the point of having another rule? The enforcement ALREADY exists = TP on the roads, cameras, etc. Do TP always stop you for speeding? No, you get shot -- smile you're on candid camera -- and you get a ticket. If THAT is not enforcement then that is what? LOL How do you enforce if there's no form of identification? All I am proposing is that a license plate is tied to an individual so they can be identified for flouting the law. How much would that cost? $50-80? Maybe add a basic theory test? The IU thing was just getting carried away. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detach8 5th Gear April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 2:05 AM, Tedlhw said: Actually I think u all are just over thinking things. All we need is, if u want to cycle on roads, register a VRN that is tagged to your name/IC number. Probably cost nothing much to register, and probably $30-50 for the number plates. This VRN can be used for all your bicycles that u want to use for cycling on roads. It's just about aaccountability. The lack of a VRN allows the worst behaviour possible, the way people will behave if they think no one is looking or nobody checking..A lot like behaviour on the Internet. No accountability. Anyhow hoot. Thanks you echo exactly what's on my mind. I can't give you a praise, so this is how I express my thanks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inlinesix Hypersonic April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 3:24 AM, Detach8 said: The enforcement ALREADY exists = TP on the roads, cameras, etc. Do TP always stop you for speeding? No, you get shot -- smile you're on candid camera -- and you get a ticket. If THAT is not enforcement then that is what? LOL How do you enforce if there's no form of identification? All I am proposing is that a license plate is tied to an individual so they can be identified for flouting the law. How much would that cost? $50-80? Maybe add a basic theory test? The IU thing was just getting carried away. Enforcement on illegal electric bicycle does not exist. Worse still, a lot of them carry pillion which is illegal. With ineffective enforcement on illegal electric bicycle, are you sure that every single bicycle will have VRN? I like the idea. How do we ensure that relevant authority follow it through in terms of enforcement? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrianli Hypersonic April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 4:14 AM, Davidtch said: Enforcement on illegal electric bicycle does not exist. Worse still, a lot of them carry pillion which is illegal. With ineffective enforcement on illegal electric bicycle, are you sure that every single bicycle will have VRN? I like the idea. How do we ensure that relevant authority follow it through in terms of enforcement? Why u have to worry abt how the relevant authorities does their enforcement? If u cant beat them, join them. Be an LTA Enforcer or TP. Surely you can make a difference. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
inlinesix Hypersonic April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 4:16 AM, Adrianli said: Why u have to worry abt how the relevant authorities does their enforcement? If u cant beat them, join them. Be an LTA Enforcer or TP. Surely you can make a difference. What's the pt of having a rule that no one enforce it? In the end, everyone still come to MCF & KPKB. LPPL le. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrianli Hypersonic April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 4:22 AM, Davidtch said: What's the pt of having a rule that no one enforce it? In the end, everyone still come to MCF & KPKB. LPPL le. Do you want here to be same as North Korea? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryn Turbocharged April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 3:24 AM, Detach8 said: The enforcement ALREADY exists = TP on the roads, cameras, etc. Do TP always stop you for speeding? No, you get shot -- smile you're on candid camera -- and you get a ticket. If THAT is not enforcement then that is what? LOL How do you enforce if there's no form of identification? All I am proposing is that a license plate is tied to an individual so they can be identified for flouting the law. How much would that cost? $50-80? Maybe add a basic theory test? The IU thing was just getting carried away. Well remembering a few things a) in many cases a bike only costs $80 - would you still be willing to register cars if the cost of a number plate were $50,000? b) You can control the import of cars - they're big and hard to move - how much effort do you want to go to in controlling bicycles coming into the country? c) By default - all cars move on the road, so all need a license plate - and it's nigh on impossible for them to move anywhere else. Is this the case for bicycles? How many bikes never move on the road? d) How many bikes go on the road for 500m till they reach a park connector, and then are ridden there? Are you really going to require this usage pattern to be registered? e) Bikes are very often passed around friends and family (not really the case for cars) - they are borrowed, given away, used and abused - can you imagine the cost and infrastructure required of trying to track this sort of usage? f) Can you imagine how easy it would be to "counterfeit" a bike number plate - lets say someone on a bike gets snapped with a fake plate, and someone else gets the ticket. How are you going to protect against this? (yes for cars it's the same thing, but the level of checking and verification is exponetionally higher, if you expect this same level of protection for bikes it will be grotesquely expensive) And the related issue - if I got a ticket for a Bike Registration Number from a counterfeit plate - how will I defend myself? Also remember, bikes are lent much more freely, and with less memory of who was riding at a particular time than can be said for cars - it's all very well to say "don't lend your bike" -- but again, is this really something you want to see happening? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duckduck Turbocharged April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 next big problem are electric scooters. this past week ive seen 2 different guys using them on the main road, as if they were a motorbike. I guy had a helmet n kept left, the other guy had no helmet n was on extreme right lane... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedlhw 5th Gear April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 4:33 AM, Darryn said: Well remembering a few things a) in many cases a bike only costs $80 - would you still be willing to register cars if the cost of a number plate were $50,000? -This is really just too bad. Other road users spend thousands if not hundreds of thousands to use the road. Don't see why $80 is a big one off price for using the roads. b) You can control the import of cars - they're big and hard to move - how much effort do you want to go to in controlling bicycles coming into the country? c) By default - all cars move on the road, so all need a license plate - and it's nigh on impossible for them to move anywhere else. Is this the case for bicycles? How many bikes never move on the road?- Not on the road, no need to register d) How many bikes go on the road for 500m till they reach a park connector, and then are ridden there? Are you really going to require this usage pattern to be registered? -Yes. I envision a clip design number plate, to clip onto any bicycle. Or just an aluminium/plastic plate with holes so it can be cable tied onto any bicycle e) Bikes are very often passed around friends and family (not really the case for cars) - they are borrowed, given away, used and abused - can you imagine the cost and infrastructure required of trying to track this sort of usage? No need track. I can lend you my bicycle. Please clip on your own plate if you want to use on the road. f) Can you imagine how easy it would be to "counterfeit" a bike number plate - lets say someone on a bike gets snapped with a fake plate, and someone else gets the ticket. How are you going to protect against this? (yes for cars it's the same thing, but the level of checking and verification is exponetionally higher, if you expect this same level of protection for bikes it will be grotesquely expensive) And the related issue - if I got a ticket for a Bike Registration Number from a counterfeit plate - how will I defend myself? - How will you get caught ? Probably from a video/picture. Someone counterfeited your number? Can be verified. Real case, then well and good, change your VRN. Get LTA to work, as some forummers like to say , get them to investigate. Same thing for cars, whats so special? What protection/verification are we getting? Nothing what. Eventually these guys with fake number plates slip up, get caught in a road block, get checked and they will face the full brunt of the law I know a ex-car dealer that drove deregistered cars on the road, with a fake number plate of a car that he has in his garage for sale. Took 3 years to get caught, but he got caught in a road block and eventually was jailed. Also remember, bikes are lent much more freely, and with less memory of who was riding at a particular time than can be said for cars - it's all very well to say "don't lend your bike" -- but again, is this really something you want to see happening? Sure lend your bike. just un-clip your liscense plate , and have him clip his. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
L_club23 4th Gear April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 I say do an extended one-time clampdown on errant cyclists and make examples of those caught... Followed by subsequent random such exercises to keep them on their toes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryn Turbocharged April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 6:02 AM, Tedlhw said: It's an issue because of a number of reasons 1. With a car and "wrong charge" you will at least have a chance to disprove - from many different reasons and records, for a bike it will be much much harder - just think of usage patterns of each 2. The cost is a factor because it has a huge disproportionate impact on the segment of society that can least afford it, with not much concurrent benefit 3. The easier it is to "clip on, clip off" plate, the less worth it is, because the more common will be counterfit and cheating 4. A car with fake plate already take three years - can you imagine how long a bike with fake plate will take to get caught? Can you imagine the logistics involved in checking on plate ownership? It's not that cannot be done - it's that there are two broad problems a) the cost would far outweigh the benefits - especially if compared against other ways to achieve the same ends, so it is not good policy b) The cost would have a disproportionate effect on the least well off sector of society - as a car driver, it is not much of a problem to "afford" $200-300 or more a year in tracking and enforcement of VRN, as a bike owner who needs a bike to commute $200-$300 a year is likely to be a (relatively) large proportion of their income. Two many are seeing the solution through the eyes of car ownership, which is wrong. I've been in the situation before where even buying a $200 bike was a big decision, but it was needed for my work, if someone is in that situation to then ask them to pay more money for registration is pushing them down - not helping them up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tedlhw 5th Gear April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 On 4/10/2015 at 6:16 AM, Darryn said: It's an issue because of a number of reasons 1. With a car and "wrong charge" you will at least have a chance to disprove - from many different reasons and records, for a bike it will be much much harder - just think of usage patterns of each - For bicycle, will probably get caught at CCTV or camera or physically caught. Just review footage. Don't see much difference in difficulty, 2. The cost is a factor because it has a huge disproportionate impact on the segment of society that can least afford it, with not much concurrent benefit. It depends on what you think is the benefit. Is safety a benefit? How about no more cyclists on expressways for a start? How about no more hit and runs? How about no more flipping the bird? How about no more riding against traffic? How about no more hitting pedestains? 3. The easier it is to "clip on, clip off" plate, the less worth it is, because the more common will be counterfit and cheating. Its personal accountability. Bicycle VRN is tagged to the person, not the bicycle. I would take very good care of mine. Don't know about you. 4. A car with fake plate already take three years - can you imagine how long a bike with fake plate will take to get caught? Can you imagine the logistics involved in checking on plate ownership? Maybe never, maybe 1 week I really dont see any effort on the police's part. In the case i mentioned, the bugger just got checked at a road block. Something was wrong. He got arrested. What logistics? It's not that cannot be done - it's that there are two broad problems a) the cost would far outweigh the benefits - especially if compared against other ways to achieve the same ends, so it is not good policy-As above b) The cost would have a disproportionate effect on the least well off sector of society - as a car driver, it is not much of a problem to "afford" $200-300 or more a year in tracking and enforcement of VRN, as a bike owner who needs a bike to commute $200-$300 a year is likely to be a (relatively) large proportion of their income. -Wanna use the road, pay $80 one time to register. When did we talk about recurrent charges? Two many are seeing the solution through the eyes of car ownership, which is wrong. I am seeing it from the eyes of shared road usage. Why are some road users more equal than others? I've been in the situation before where even buying a $200 bike was a big decision, but it was needed for my work, if someone is in that situation to then ask them to pay more money for registration is pushing them down - not helping them up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcf777 Turbocharged April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 (edited) Very simple..... TP or LTA just need to advertise on the Newspaper BIG BIG (full page) that they are clamping down on all the A) illegal cyclist B) electric scooters C) cyclying thru Traffic junction D) cyclying thru zebra crossing E) cyclying on pathway F) etc... With the full summon prices that each individual need to pay.An And summon prices will be 50% more for the next subsequent summon Immediately, you will see result Edited April 10, 2015 by Mcf777 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darryn Turbocharged April 10, 2015 Share April 10, 2015 (edited) will probably get caught at CCTV or camera or physically caught. Just review footage. Don't see much difference in difficulty, It's a twofold difficulty - the first is in accurate identification of the correct cyclist, and the second is in "recalling / proving" it wasn't you. Bikes have a different usage pattern to cars that makes both of the above far far more difficult. Cars are a LOT more identifiable than bikes - not least of which because they require a key and have security - anybody at almost anytime can ride a bike - which goes double if the plate is a clip on style . The market would be flooded with counterfeit plates - and if someone copies my plate - it will be a real challenge to challenge any CCTV footage - with a car it is a very different thing 2. The cost is a factor because it has a huge disproportionate impact on the segment of society that can least afford it, with not much concurrent benefit. It depends on what you think is the benefit. Is safety a benefit? Then I challenge you back - how much is the safety benefit? Can you achieve the same benefit with a lower spend? I would say two things a) a safety benefit from an easily faked plate is minimal, it's not going to change many behaviours - what will change behaviour is strong enforcement - and for strong enforcement - is a plate really required? And then strong enforcement comes with a lot of expenditure How about no more cyclists on expressways for a start? You can claim that - but again - how many cyclists have there been on the expressways? Is the problem really so prevalent that you need to introduce such an expensive and cumbersome policy as personal registration for bikes to stop it? And even if you do have the registration, how many of the "expressway cyclists" cases will it stop? I don't think it would have made a single bit of difference to the recent case of the large group on the expressway for example How about no more hit and runs? How many hit and runs are there from cyclists? How much damage is caused by these hit and runs? You are proposing a rather drastic and somewhat draconian policy - there is an onus on you to at least provide some sort of reliable figures for the size of the problem How about no more flipping the bird? If you're using that as a metric - then you will also have to introduce pedestrian registration plates as well How is "rudeness" a cost? You really want to require upwards of 2 million people to register as cyclists, pay an $80 fee to stop "flipping the bird"? And how is stopping people from "flipping the bird" working out for car drivers - they still do it, and do it frequently despite be registered and licensed - which would show me that registration won't work towards solving this. How about no more riding against traffic? I'd contend that most (upwards of 95%) of "riding against traffic" is more about ignorance than fear of being caught / ticketed. Most people that do this swear up and down that it is "safer" How about no more hitting pedestains? In the last 24 months, how many injuries were caused by bicycle / pedestrian accidents? How much damage was caused by the same What were the injuries? With an add on question - if "wheelchairs hitting pedestrians" occurs at a similar rate to cyclists, are you also going to require wheelchair registration? 3. The easier it is to "clip on, clip off" plate, the less worth it is, because the more common will be counterfit and cheating. Its personal accountability. Bicycle VRN is tagged to the person, not the bicycle. I would take very good care of mine. Don't know about you. And here's the question - how is you taking "good care" of your plate going to stop someone from copying it? 4. A car with fake plate already take three years - can you imagine how long a bike with fake plate will take to get caught? Can you imagine the logistics involved in checking on plate ownership? Maybe never, maybe 1 week I really dont see any effort on the police's part. In the case i mentioned, the bugger just got checked at a road block. Something was wrong. He got arrested. What logistics? Of course got effort - enforcement = effort + cost. No enforcement no point It's not that cannot be done - it's that there are two broad problems a) the cost would far outweigh the benefits - especially if compared against other ways to achieve the same ends, so it is not good policy-As above b) The cost would have a disproportionate effect on the least well off sector of society - as a car driver, it is not much of a problem to "afford" $200-300 or more a year in tracking and enforcement of VRN, as a bike owner who needs a bike to commute $200-$300 a year is likely to be a (relatively) large proportion of their income. -Wanna use the road, pay $80 one time to register. When did we talk about recurrent charges? Of course got ongoing cost to keep database up to date, when plate gets damaged, for new cyclists - who is going to pay the ongoing cost? Two many are seeing the solution through the eyes of car ownership, which is wrong. I am seeing it from the eyes of shared road usage. Why are some road users more equal than others? The point was, and is - when viewed through the eyes of overall ownership cost, keeping track of car registration is a very very small cost for car owners. When viewed through the eyes of overall cost for bike ownership, any sort of registration system is going to by orders of magnitude greater as a portion of purchase price for bikes. And that is before taking into account the relative wealth of each segment - those cycling for commuting are overwhelmingly the least well off - so any extra costs to this segment have to take into account overall social impacts I've been in the situation before where even buying a $200 bike was a big decision, but it was needed for my work, if someone is in that situation to then ask them to pay more money for registration is pushing them down - not helping them up. Edited April 10, 2015 by Darryn ↡ Advertisement Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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