GT86/BRZ vs 'Roc 2.0 TSi

[En0203]

  On 7/30/2014 at 7:41 AM, Quantum said:

salute GT86/BRZ,

2.0L NA can produce 200bhp

German don't know how to make car without TC

 

2.0L makes 200bhp is 100bhp/L, last time german //M also can do

 

and still cannot fight vtec 111bhp/L

[Relagsingh]

  On 7/29/2014 at 6:49 AM, F355 said:

 

Manual vs DSG

RWD vs FWD

NA vs Turbo

 

 

Now that says a lot doesn't it?

[Myxilplix]

  On 7/30/2014 at 9:55 AM, Relagsingh said:

 

Now that says a lot doesn't it?

 

Don't forget an cold-air intake, street legal exhaust and a tune can give 48hp gain on a 2 litre NA engine already pushing 100hp/litre

[Vega]

  On 7/30/2014 at 6:59 AM, Ezfaun said:

 

The previous owner had the car ordered from the dealer with a TRD short shifter, TRD suspension, TRD flywheel and TRD LSD. When I took

over, I changed the exhaust to HKS Legamax with cert and changed the intake to Perrin CAI. I transferred a wideband sensor from my rx8

into it when it was sent for tuning using ecutek. Before and after difference was 48whp.

 

Without the intake and exhaust, they said at most I'll gain 20hp but with those two added on, they make a big difference haha. My car was

able to get slightly ahead of a legacy gt going from a traffic light. I don't think a scirocco can compare at this stage already

that is very impressive gain for a NA car without a TC.

 

what is the century sprint timing?

[Renegade777]

The FT86/BRZ more presence and catches more attention than ROC. Looks more like a sport car too. On the street or car park, think more people will stare at the FT86/BRZ than the other one. Somemore, reliability and branding and its connection with its history......oops should legend AE86.

 

 

Edited July 30, 2014 by Renegade777

[Jamomatt]

  On 7/30/2014 at 6:23 AM, Soya said:

 

light clutch? traffic jam, stop go leg cramp or not?

It is not as light as your typical jap sedan but I never find it to be a problem. But I've been driving manual my whole life so I'm used to it.

[F355]

  On 7/30/2014 at 7:41 AM, Quantum said:

salute GT86/BRZ,

2.0L NA can produce 200bhp

German don't know how to make car without TC

 

No engineering marvel la ; as one forumer pointed out , BMW M engines ( before going turbo ) gives 100 bhp per litre and Vtec more.

 

Superbikes easily 150 bhp per litre ; last seasons Formula 1 NA engines over 300 bhp per litre.

 

Its a matter of reducing the stroke of the piston and increasing its bore ; and make it high revving . You sacrifice torque but make up the power gains thru revs. Note that the GT86 peak power is achieved only after 7000 rpm. Vtec engines you need 8 to 9000 rpm ; F1 engines 18000 rpm.

[F355]

  On 7/30/2014 at 5:44 AM, En0203 said:

Comparing stock:

If you are a NSH warrior then you need top speed and torque: Roc

If you are a track kaki then you need balance, light weight, power to weight and RWD: GT86

 

so which one are you?

Its the other way round for me.

 

On NSH , I simply floor the throttle and can still sip a cup of coffee if I want to . Roc's peak torque of 280 starts to drop dramatically after 5000 rpm ( TC engine ) and since we are cruising at high rpms , the engine will feel as if it is out of breath. In contrast the 86 is still torquey after 6000 rpm and with peak power delivery at 7000 rpm , you will feel that the car is still energetic. Even though manufacturers figures shows a higher top speed for the Roc , ( 233 vs 226 ) , this is pretty insignificant and may be due to gearing ratios.

I would prefer a 86 over the Roc on NSH .

 

 

On track , more so a twisty one with lots of acceleration and braking , its all about torque , torque , and more torque . Roc has 280 Nm flat from a measly 2000 rpm to 5000 rpm and this amount of torque is fully utilised 90% of the time. In contrast to the 86 , you have only 205 at your disposal and with the 86's unique torque dip from 3500 to 4500 rpm , it only make matters worse.

I will take the Roc over the 86 on track.

 

 

For pure drifting fun , this is a no brainer , get the 86 .

Edited July 30, 2014 by F355

[D15z7]

  On 7/30/2014 at 8:58 AM, En0203 said:

 

2.0L makes 200bhp is 100bhp/L, last time german //M also can do

 

and still cannot fight vtec 111bhp/L

You forgot about the following legendary Honda cars:

 

--> EK9 Civic Type-R

1.6L B16B Engine making 185 ps (182.5 bhp).. 114 bhp/L

 

--> AP1 S2000

2.0L F20C Engine making 240 ps (236. 7bhp).. 118 bhp/L

Edited July 30, 2014 by D15z7

[Vega]

  On 7/30/2014 at 2:02 PM, F355 said:

Its the other way round for me.

 

On NSH , I simply floor the throttle and can still sip a cup of coffee if I want to . Roc's peak torque of 280 starts to drop dramatically after 5000 rpm ( TC engine ) and since we are cruising at high rpms , the engine will feel as if it is out of breath. In contrast the 86 is still torquey after 6000 rpm and with peak power delivery at 7000 rpm , you will feel that the car is still energetic. Even though manufacturers figures shows a higher top speed for the Roc , ( 233 vs 226 ) , this is pretty insignificant and may be due to gearing ratios.

I would prefer a 86 over the Roc on NSH .

 

 

On track , more so a twisty one with lots of acceleration and braking , its all about torque , torque , and more torque . Roc has 280 Nm flat from a measly 2000 rpm to 5000 rpm and this amount of torque is fully utilised 90% of the time. In contrast to the 86 , you have only 205 at your disposal and with the 86's unique torque dip from 3500 to 4500 rpm , it only make matters worse.

I will take the Roc over the 86 on track.

 

 

For pure drifting fun , this is a no brainer , get the 86 .

Do you think the Roc will reach its top speed faster than the 86 on the highway since its torque come so much earlier?

[F355]

  On 7/30/2014 at 2:57 PM, Vega said:

Do you think the Roc will reach its top speed faster than the 86 on the highway since its torque come so much earlier?

I think so but not by much. Just pure speculating, i think the roc will pull away easily from 0 to 180 , and the 86 closing back up from 180 to 210 . I think both cars has difficulty hitting 230 stock.

[Vega]

  On 7/30/2014 at 3:22 PM, F355 said:

I think so but not by much. Just pure speculating, i think the roc will pull away easily from 0 to 180 , and the 86 closing back up from 180 to 210 . I think both cars has difficulty hitting 230 stock.

 

we did a test with a 2.0L roc and a FD2R. I can confirm that the Roc will have an initial advantage but from 150 mark, we can see the FD2R catching up with the Roc.

 

both can pass the 230 mark without problem.

 

I think the Roc will be faster than the 86 but the 86 will be more fun to drive.

[En0203]

  On 7/30/2014 at 2:02 PM, F355 said:

Its the other way round for me.

 

On NSH , I simply floor the throttle and can still sip a cup of coffee if I want to . Roc's peak torque of 280 starts to drop dramatically after 5000 rpm ( TC engine ) and since we are cruising at high rpms , the engine will feel as if it is out of breath. In contrast the 86 is still torquey after 6000 rpm and with peak power delivery at 7000 rpm , you will feel that the car is still energetic. Even though manufacturers figures shows a higher top speed for the Roc , ( 233 vs 226 ) , this is pretty insignificant and may be due to gearing ratios.

I would prefer a 86 over the Roc on NSH .

 

 

On track , more so a twisty one with lots of acceleration and braking , its all about torque , torque , and more torque . Roc has 280 Nm flat from a measly 2000 rpm to 5000 rpm and this amount of torque is fully utilised 90% of the time. In contrast to the 86 , you have only 205 at your disposal and with the 86's unique torque dip from 3500 to 4500 rpm , it only make matters worse.

I will take the Roc over the 86 on track.

 

 

For pure drifting fun , this is a no brainer , get the 86 .

 

Maybe you are right. I am not a racing pro, neither am I a car techie, so I may not know much. But torquey car will always pull ahead in the start, on the straight. it's going to be tough to catch them up unless you have significantly more powerful top end. If you look at Roc's torque curve, you will realize no matter how the torque dips it is still above 200 Nm towards the 6500 rpm end, and the power curve is considerably flat 5000 to 6500 rpm, and only drop slightly towards the end. In the 86 you have probably 500 rpm more to play only if you rev up to 7000 rpm, probably not enough to close the gap. In comparison, I would guess a Type R with it's 9000 rpm rev may catch up on the top end. But then again, I am just guessing, never know unless you try.

 

On a track I would think the 86 would outperform the scirocco because it is lighter and more balance. The low torque can be made up by keeping the engine in high rev region (I assume the gearbox is close ratio on the 86?). Unless the power difference is significant the one with better balance and power band at higher end is normally the winner. Just see how type R's can threaten the EVO's on the track. But then again, it is just my guess I have no experience in racing nor I am driving any of those You should know a lot more than I do as you at least drive the 86.

 

Having said that I have seen the youtube clip on 86's acceleration. The pulling power on any speed before 210 km/h is simply awesome you must be enjoying every moment driving the car.

  On 7/30/2014 at 2:18 PM, D15z7 said:

You forgot about the following legendary Honda cars:

 

--> EK9 Civic Type-R

1.6L B16B Engine making 185 ps (182.5 bhp).. 114 bhp/L

 

--> AP1 S2000

2.0L F20C Engine making 240 ps (236. 7bhp).. 118 bhp/L

 

Yea, vtec is the king in high rev amongst production cars

[Zakkwylde]

  On 7/30/2014 at 4:50 AM, Ezfaun said:

 

BMS tuned it for me but I don't remember which of their technicians did the tuning. They tuned my previous car quite well so I guess I trust

them enough to do a good job while I go have some lunch. They made 48hp more than before with cai and exhaust. Torque dip is still

there but the engine seems a lot lighter at high rpms like a vtec engine

To get 48 whp with cai and exos mod couple with tuning is massive for an N.A car. Is ur car tuned to be aggressive? Track tuned or daily driven?

[Soya]

  On 7/30/2014 at 10:49 AM, Renegade777 said:

The FT86/BRZ more presence and catches more attention than ROC. Looks more like a sport car too. On the street or car park, think more people will stare at the FT86/BRZ than the other one. Somemore, reliability and branding and its connection with its history......oops should legend AE86.

 

 

 

 

true true. the roc abit common and can't realli tell the diff between the 1.4 and the 2.0. the brz/86 is more pure to it purpose.

  On 7/29/2014 at 5:34 PM, Jamomatt said:

My vote goes to the 86/brz since I drive one... Don't wait. Subaru clearing brz stock at 130+k right now if still available.

 

 

$130k+ sure boh? What's the T&C and is it based on COE being $20k or something? Remembered when it was launched in 2012, MI was asking like $180k for it.

[jng44]

  On 7/31/2014 at 1:51 AM, Soya said:

 

 

true true. the roc abit common and can't realli tell the diff between the 1.4 and the 2.0. the brz/86 is more pure to it purpose.

 

 

$130k+ sure boh? What's the T&C and is it based on COE being $20k or something? Remembered when it was launched in 2012, MI was asking like $180k for it.

 

$136,888, both manual and auto. Based on current COE, but non-guarantee. Terms are minimum 1 year $30k in-house financing, minimum 1 year in-house insurance (AIG). Don't know if still got stock through because two weeks ago I checked left few units only (2x manual and 2x auto).

  On 7/31/2014 at 1:40 AM, Zakkwylde said:

To get 48 whp with cai and exos mod couple with tuning is massive for an N.A car. Is ur car tuned to be aggressive? Track tuned or daily driven?

 

Interested to see the dynos base vs. tuned if can provide? Mine NA tuned (but auto) with Ecutek gain ~15hp at the wheel. Even with lower afr <12.5 at the higher rpm no additional gain.

[Heelntoe]

  On 7/31/2014 at 3:47 AM, Jng44 said:

Interested to see the dynos base vs. tuned if can provide? Mine NA tuned (but auto) with Ecutek gain ~15hp at the wheel. Even with lower afr <12.5 at the higher rpm no additional gain.

Yah man, if it were me I would be asking for a before/after dyno curve to back this bold claim, especially if I had to pay accordingly for it.

[SGCMWhiteKnight]

To get 48 whp with cai and exos mod couple with tuning is massive for an N.A car. Is ur car tuned to be aggressive? Track tuned or daily driven?

Massive is an understatement for just intake/exhaust mods and ecu tuning. Typically to get 24% (48hp/200hp stock) gains on an already highly tuned NA car involves major mods, cams, springs, ecu, individual TBs, PnP, bore, stroke, etc... very hard to believe without a dyno chart. On a FI car, its very easy.