SG conflict with Indo - navy ship name & air space

[Hotamp]

USA historically is full of rebels.....if they had done the same thing now instead of during the war of independance with the brits they will be labelled as terrorists! If they had lost that war....most of the men would be hanged under treason against the british empire and the queen.

 

 

true...in any conflict there will always be 2 side...in the middle east they will call those who opposes the west as " freedom fighters" then the west would labelled them " terrorists".....innocent civilians lives lost are just " collateral damages" to the US. so there is always a different perspective depending on whose side you are on. The indo viewed the commandos as heroes so be it, we have a different definition for them because of what they did...its ok. They were mere foot soldiers carrying out an order during a confrontation period just like the japs in WWII...singapore has come a long way economically and militarily since the confrontation days. why dont we be gracious abt it and let them name whatever s**t name they want for their ship? in our hearts we know that SAF is more than capable to sink them if ever they were to intrude into our waters....let the past rest.

Edited February 8, 2014 by Hotamp

[Evillusion]

 

 

true...in any conflict there will always be 2 side...in the middle east they will call those who opposes the west as " freedom fighters" then the west would labelled them " terrorists".....innocent civilians lives lost are just " collateral damages" to the US. so there is always a different perspective depending on whose side you are on. The indo viewed the commandos as heroes so be it, we have a different definition for them because of what they did...its ok. They were mere foot soldiers carrying out an order during a confrontation period just like the japs in WWII...singapore has come a long way economically and militarily since the confrontation days. why dont we be gracious abt it and let them name whatever s**t name they want for their ship? in our hearts we know that SAF is more than capable to sink them if ever they were to intrude into our waters....let the past rest.

can say like that also....konfrantasi was actually between Malaysia and Indonesia (who wanted Borneo as their own. We got sucked into it as we were earlier still inside The Malay Federation. Indo wanted the whole archipelago for themselves and so to them it was like a war for sovereignty. To us it was akin to a fight for our fledgeling independance. Same case between Taiwan and China....

[Karoon]

great deflection for MIW....

 

thanks indons!

[RadX]

My thinking is this is not gonna go too well down, considering the amount of help we have rendered in times of disaster..

 

well, as mentioned in the other thread abt the dead fish and dolphins....i just wonder wonder..... hmmmmmm....payback time?

[Sagara]

By openly sending one's soldier to another country to conduct sabotage isn't that an act of war? They cannot denies they did not send those soldier as those 2 were honoured as hero back home. They can try doing that to China and Russian and see if their president will go Indonesia to scattered flower of not. Most likely they will send their ICBM over. All U2 pilot need to resign from USAF before CIA will take them in because if their plane were to be shot down and the pilot caught, it is an act of war as they are soldier.

 

Turn the table around and if we were the country to send in soldier to Indonesia, will they let the matter rest so easily like what we did?

[Super7]

probably just hold them off long enough for lau lee to escape nia

If b**tards attack us, make sure before we (the little red dot in their eyes) go down, we inflict the meanest possible damages on them first!!

By openly sending one's soldier to another country to conduct sabotage isn't that an act of war? They cannot denies they did not send those soldier as those 2 were honoured as hero back home. They can try doing that to China and Russian and see if their president will go Indonesia to scattered flower of not. Most likely they will send their ICBM over. All U2 pilot need to resign from USAF before CIA will take them in because if their plane were to be shot down and the pilot caught, it is an act of war as they are soldier.

 

Turn the table around and if we were the country to send in soldier to Indonesia, will they let the matter rest so easily like what we did?

Hi Bro,

Your first post since joining MCF May 2008!

Really solid!!

[Sturtles]

I feel ashamed with the naming of 2 indo navy, so many heroes in indo why chose these two terrorists?

 

Is indo govt is getting crazy? I dunno but this is not a good thing. The one that suggested and approved the naming of the ships must be some former terrorists ministers

 

It will be a heavy destroyer with 200m length that can destroy any ships

 

 

The present SG Government seem not to understand when dealing with governments in out region, their mindset is rather different from our western trained ones..

 

These people are more like local kampong chieftain in mentality, so when Vivian sent them a letter of displeasure publicly over the haze last year, it was like SG fired the opening shot, giving SG haters the opportunity to make an issue out of it.

 

They claimed in their national newsprint the plantations set on fire are linked to Singaporean companies, or owned by them, which is highly disputed, but to these kampong chiefs, it does not matter what is the truth, only what is good for their agenda, like the UMNO Ultras slandering SG government long time back with false reports to rouse public sentiments.

 

These incidents are all linked, as someone has an axe to grind against us. Goodwill efforts like peacekeeping corps and food aid will immediately be forgotten when greed and jealousy rears its ugly head, especially among the wealth/power grabbing politicians.

 

All the superficial goodwill and courtesy cannot be taken for granted, and can vanish in seconds against a bigger movement. Hope this will be a good lesson for the future leaders PAP, WP or otherwise.

[Super7]

should name our new Navy boat with the names of the judges that found the men guilty as charge! Then name a street or rd with the dead Singaporeans.

Why not rename the road in front of their embassy building here with the names of the innocent victims who died, it's LTA's move, no foreigners should intervene.

 

Move the tomb stones in front of the embassy gate, send Mr Kim of Civic fame to the gate to ask about their mothers' well being also.

[Thaiyotakamli]

My thinking is this is not gonna go too well down, considering the amount of help we have rendered in times of disaster..

 

well, as mentioned in the other thread abt the dead fish and dolphins....i just wonder wonder..... hmmmmmm....payback time?

 

U help indonesian local simply useless. Just like how my jakarta relative whom feed and give money to the local back in then, when the 98 riot happen those local that were friends become enemy, join in rioting and looting my relatives' electronic goods as well as the clothings, then took the furnitures away and destroy the shop by smash and burn.

 

So thats why even if sg govt fork billions to help indonesia, their govt will forget ur kindness in a blink of eye

[Neost]

We better diam diam. Imagine they send 500 civilians in 500 sampans everyday over here, our straits of Singapore will be as crowded as CTE

[Camrysfa]

read the comments after the article...

 

 

http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2014/02/06/kri-usman-harun-here-stay-minister.html

[Evillusion]

We better diam diam. Imagine they send 500 civilians in 500 sampans everyday over here, our straits of Singapore will be as crowded as CTE

can pur erp gantry....$1 per sampan!! Huat argh!!

[Darthrevan]

The warship KRI Usman Harun (right) with other new Indonesian Navy frigates at a shipyard in Britain. Acting Manpower Minister Tan Chuan-Jin said that ''there is nothing heroic about killing innocent civilians''.

 

Singapore ministers: Jakarta's move 'reflects disrespect'

Two Cabinet ministers with military backgrounds took issue yesterday with Indonesia's decision to name a navy ship after two marines who bombed an Orchard Road building in 1965.

In separate Facebook posts, Minister for Social and Family Development Chan Chun Sing and Acting Manpower Minister Tan Chuan-Jin said it reflected disrespect, callousness and insensitivity.

Mr Tan, a one-star general before he entered politics, wrote in a Facebook post: "It is one thing to remember your heroes from your wars of independence, or those who have built your nation.

"But it is another thing altogether when you celebrate those who had acted in a brutal and cowardly manner. There is nothing heroic about killing innocent civilians."

Minister for Social and Family Development Chan Chun Sing's Facebook post:

I am disappointed with the Indonesian decision to name their new warship after the two convicted ex-marines. I am also disappointed with the reactions of the Indonesian leaders who have spoken on this issue thus far.

The statements reflected either a lack of sensitivity, a lack of care for the bilateral ties, or both.

The relations between the two countries were carefully built up over many years. Despite the dark episode of the Konfrontasi and MacDonald's House bombing, our leaders Mr Lee Kuan Yew and Pak Suharto demonstrated great statesmanship to bring closure to the difficult moments and worked together to usher in a new era of cooperation for mutual benefit. I hope the new generation of Indonesian leaders will display similar wisdom and leadership to put the bilateral ties foremost in all that we do. And not to do anything to reopen old wounds and hurt this relationship so carefully built up.

I have made many Indonesian friends over all these years, especially during my two year stint in Jakarta as the Army Attache. Indonesians have shown me that they are able to appreciate the fine sensitivities of a relationship. I am thus disappointed with this episode. I hope the Indonesian leaders will not sacrifice our bilateral relations, so carefully built up, to domestic politics or through carelessness.

Acting Manpower Minister Tan Chuan-Jin's Facebook post:

On the night of 8 February 1942, Japanese forces began the invasion of Singapore. By 15 February, it was all over. Next week, we remember the fall of Singapore by commemorating Total Defence Day. It is a reminder that we should not take our peace for granted. And that we must ourselves defend our own home because no one else will.

When we failed then, the consequences were tragic. To this day, it is unclear how many perished during the occupation of Singapore. We all know of the cruelty and atrocities committed by the Japanese. My grandfather was rounded up to be executed. It must have been part of the Sook Ching. But he was released at the last moment because a 'local' Japanese knew him. My father, who was only a boy then, to this day, remember the horrors of seeing dismembered bodies due to the bombings.

Over the years, there have been other threats. A date that has been recently thrust back into our consciousness is 10 March 1965. On that day, Indonesian Marines Harun Said and Usman Hj Mohd Ali planted and detonated a bomb at MacDonald House, killing three Singaporeans and injuring 33. This was part of the Konfrontasi where Sukarno sought to undermine the formation of Malaysia by stirring racial tension as well as targeting key installations and fomenting fear via an indiscriminate bombing campaign.

I know of this event from a young age because my father worked in Metal Box and his office was in MacDonald House. He told me that he hardly ever took medical leave but happened to be off that day. When he heard the news over the radio, he was shaken but hugely relieved as the bomb had gone off in an area where he could have been at.

While these seemed like fascinating stories when growing up, as I got older, I began to realise that we should never let these things happen to us again. As Dr Toh Chin Chye, then Deputy Premier said: "…this incident should make us realise that our own survival must depend on our determination and resolve to protect our own independence."

The two Indonesians were caught, tried and executed. Their hanging on 17 October 1968 sparked off an attack on our Singapore Embassy in Jakarta by a mob. They then attacked our consul's residence and the homes of two other Singaporean diplomats. They also burnt our Singapore flag. In 1973, then PM Lee Kuan Yew visited the graves of the two marines. It was a gesture of reconciliation that brought closure and allowed both countries to forge a close relationship. Over the many years of interaction, I myself have found many friends in the Indonesian military and have also worked closely with them while providing humanitarian aid and disaster relief in Aceh, in the aftermath of the Indian Ocean Tsunami.

Remarkably, the Indonesian Navy is now naming one of their ships KRI Usman Harun, in honour of the two.

When Elizabeth Suzie Choo, 36, died, 6 young children no longer had a mother. Mr and Mrs Goh lost their only child when Juliet Goh, 23 died in the blast. Mohammed Yasin Kesit, 45, did not awake from his coma and left behind a widow and 8 children. Many more Singaporean lives have been permanently scarred.

It is one thing to remember your heroes from your wars of independence, or those who have built your nation. But it is another thing altogether when you celebrate those who had acted in a brutal and cowardly manner. There is nothing heroic about killing innocent civilians.

Our neighbours have insisted that it is their right to name the ships as they see fit. That may well be so. But it is also our right to state categorically that this very act reflects callousness and disrespect.

As neighbours and friends, we can and should forgive.

But by the naming of this ship, the message is clear. We should also never forget.

Source: http://www.straitstimes.com/breaking-news/singapore/story/jakartas-move-reflects-disrespect-singapore-ministers-20140208

[Civic2000]

Article from Jakarta Post

 

Can we be more sensitive?

The diplomatic row between Indonesia and Singapore is unfortunate and could have been avoided if we had been a little more sensitive toward our neighbor.

 

Singapore has formally protested Jakarta’s decision to name a new corvette after two marines who planted a bomb, killing three people in the city state five decades ago, at the height of the Indonesia’s “Confrontation” war with the newly independent Malaya, which then included Singapore.

 

In 1968, Singapore executed the two men, Second Sgt. Usman and Second Cpl. Harun, in spite of Jakarta’s pleas for clemency. Relations between the two countries were only patched up when then-Singapore prime minister Lee Kuan Yew visited Jakarta in 1973 and paid his respects at the two men’s graves in Jakarta’s Kalibata Heroes Cemetery.

 

Since then, both countries have managed to put the issue behind them and forge close, warm and mutually beneficial ties, bilaterally as well as through ASEAN.

 

Until this week, that is.

 

Singapore says naming the corvette Usman-Harun hurt the feelings of Singaporeans, particularly relatives of the victims.

 

Indonesia balked at the protest, with Coordinating Political, Legal and Security Affairs Minister Djoko Suyanto saying the government would not back off and stressed that no outsiders had the right to interfere in such decisions. Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa diplomatically said Indonesia had taken note of Singapore’s concerns, and that was considered enough.

 

Indonesia will unlikely reverse its decision due to a protest from its tiny, “red-dot” neighbor. A review or an apology would have been lauded as a stately gesture, but that is not liable to happen while nationalist sentiment is reaching fever pitch in Indonesia in this election year.

 

Will our relations with return to normal? Yes, but not necessarily soon. We should at least draw an important lesson from this episode.

 

Indonesia often accuses its neighbors of a lack of sensitivity toward our feelings. Officials and politicians, helped by the media, do not hesitate to raise hell and mobilize public opinion, scoring a few political points along the way, by lashing out at foreign countries for their perceived insensitivity.

 

The decision to name this naval ship must surely have been the result of lengthy deliberations, and those involved must have known that this would upset Singapore. They could have picked from the thousands of other names of people buried in heroes cemeteries scattered across the country but instead, they chose these two.

 

In the future, can we be more sensitive?

 

 

[Bystander50]

actually, i dont see the issue....a name is just a name....history is history....seriously i dont think the younger population will actually remember the incident let alone the names of the commandos.....just let it be loh...why is there to bring back old stories???? now everyone will add pepper and salt to stir things up again.

 

I agree with you, a name is after all a name.

To name a ship after "national heros" and to have them sunk would have been a rather big malu to these people.

 

Just like there were some PLP people who wrote in to name the new National Stadium after LKY.

Imagine SG loses most of the games (eg, SEA games ... etc) played in the stadium, so what would that mean for SG or the so called legacy of LKY?

[Gitanic]

they better change name.... :angry:

 

or we name our national dog Jakarta.

[Evillusion]

they better change name.... :angry:

 

or we name our national dog Jakarta.

why u want some of our mp to be named dog?

Why not rename the road in front of their embassy building here with the names of the innocent victims who died, it's LTA's move, no foreigners should intervene.

 

Move the tomb stones in front of the embassy gate, send Mr Kim of Civic fame to the gate to ask about their mothers' well being also.

good idea.....everyday the indon ambassador will be reminded of their misdeeds!

[Bystander50]

True. We should name our next 3 amphibious support ships "HaHa" "LoL" & "Karma".

 

Why not name RSN's new ships or units of the 3 services of those from 1SIR who died during the confrontation?