SG conflict with Indo - navy ship name & air space

[Sturtles]

No objection to your free expression, but any point we make must be defensible. Anyway, I've also "freely" said my piece.

 

 

Indon will find a thousand reasons to hate us, that's for sure. And Indon has no particular reason to pick on China - they're very far away. But it's not true that they only pick on small fry. They're also agitating against the Aussies, and they're nowhere near small.

 

Just a conjecture from recent observations..

 

1) New china chairman skips SG during his travels to SEA after inauguration, while visiting Indonesia, Malaysia

 

2) China is now building up strong economic ties with indo with promise of large investments

 

3) New bridge to be built across straits of malacca connecting west malaysia to sumatra, funded by china

 

4) Is china the new puppeteer/wayang kulit master here to punish SG for being a US ally?

 

 

Edited February 10, 2014 by Sturtles

[Camrysfa]

You guys think stop buying gas and warship naming related boh?

 

Indon stopping gas sales to foreign countries. Those who are presently buying incl SG,MY,KOR,CN....

The regulation on National Energy Policy requires the government to stop exports of gas and coal to guarantee domestic supply.

 

 

[Goldbug]

If they burn more tress than usual this year how?

[Albeniz]

Foxconn is going to set up operations in Jakarta.

[Camrysfa]

The news picked up by UK agency....

 

http://www.lse.co.uk/AllNews.asp?code=3id6aaxf&headline=Indonesia_military_chief_downplays_tensions_with_Singapore

 

 

According to the report, SG cancelled the Indons invitation to the SG Airshow:

Singapore cancelled invitations for the Indonesian Navy chief and about 100 junior officers to this week's Singapore Airshow 2014, and then the rest of the top brass decided to boycott the event.

 

The naming would stay put:

Armed Forces Chief Gen Moeldoko said the military would not rename the ship.

"It's up to them to raise the issue but when it comes to sovereignty, there's no way," he said.

[Happily1986]

True. We should name our next 3 amphibious support ships "HaHa" "LoL" & "Karma".

I counterpropose fapsfapsfaps, ninaohia and kuahongkiachoon.

 

LHL a mathematician, Shan a lawyer.

 

LHL miscalculated and Shan thought he was fighting a court battle (in SG court, no less).

 

This is international diplomacy and these jokers thought they were playing Facebook... suka suka "unfriend"....

This may be indo payback for SG's refusal to release ill gotten gains parked in sg shortly after the 97 mayhem.

[Vega]

 

Just a conjecture from recent observations..

 

1) New china chairman skips SG during his travels to SEA after inauguration, while visiting Indonesia, Malaysia

 

2) China is now building up strong economic ties with indo with promise of large investments

 

3) New bridge to be built across straits of malacca connecting west malaysia to sumatra, funded by china

 

4) Is china the new puppeteer/wayang kulit master here to punish SG for being a US ally?

 

 

 

China is trying to protect her sea route as 70%-80% of her oil supply from the middle east need to go thru Indian Ocean --> straits of Malacca --> China.

 

potential problem for China in the indian ocean is India. If China has a conflict with India, her oil supply will be cut off by India.

over at south and east China sea, China having problems with Vietnam, Phillipines, Japan and the US. these sea routes will be cut off too during a conflict.

 

therefore, China planning to use land route to transport oil instead of sea route.

okie your point noted.... but I still feel 1 year too short..... you put a guy through BMT, then go on for special course.... at least half year gone... by the time he finish his course.... time to ROD or ORD watever..... imagine the tummy from 1 united pc to 6 to 8 pcs and then after just 1 year.... its 1 united pc again...... too drastic change in just 1 year....

 

He is not concern about how long people serve NS..... he is using this to score point lar, hope he can hug the Breasident seat someday.....like you say.... his timing is way off.....

 

agreed. we should take a good look at TW's NS before cutting short NS to 1 yr.

so far, TW's reservist find their NSF not up to mark during combine exercises.

[Pocus]

 

1) New china chairman skips SG during his travels to SEA after inauguration, while visiting Indonesia, Malaysia

 

This one is actually not due to Indonesia but due to the presence of US warships in our naval base. Observers note that Beijing actually abit buay song.

[Pocus]

agreed. we should take a good look at TW's NS before cutting short NS to 1 yr.

so far, TW's reservist find their NSF not up to mark during combine exercises.

 

I for one don't avocate reducing NS to 1 year. What intensity, TKL never exercise before, if NS rush and pack all programs into 1 year, more NSF will injure or commit suicide.

 

And frankly speaking, the NSF nowadays can be quite buay gan. At my ICT ATEC 3 years ago, I was assigned with NSF troopers to fill up my squad. I can only say, beside physical fitness, their mental fitness and situation awarness damn condemn.

 

They can still complain why we so shiong and siao on while we only reservist. Fark man, we already consider ourselves slacked from NS days, HTH did vocation schools train these kids these days? That's why we are still proud to donned the 2G No.4 until we MR.

 

However I do agree more could be done on making the RT program less distructive to NSmen.

[Thaiyotakamli]

 

Just a conjecture from recent observations..

 

1) New china chairman skips SG during his travels to SEA after inauguration, while visiting Indonesia, Malaysia

 

2) China is now building up strong economic ties with indo with promise of large investments

 

3) New bridge to be built across straits of malacca connecting west malaysia to sumatra, funded by china

 

4) Is china the new puppeteer/wayang kulit master here to punish SG for being a US ally?

 

 

china govt angry for sg bullying prc sbs drivers

 

以牙还牙!

[Lightbringer]

 

 

The present SG Government seem not to understand when dealing with governments in out region, their mindset is rather different from our western trained ones..

 

These people are more like local kampong chieftain in mentality, so when Vivian sent them a letter of displeasure publicly over the haze last year, it was like SG fired the opening shot, giving SG haters the opportunity to make an issue out of it.

 

They claimed in their national newsprint the plantations set on fire are linked to Singaporean companies, or owned by them, which is highly disputed, but to these kampong chiefs, it does not matter what is the truth, only what is good for their agenda, like the UMNO Ultras slandering SG government long time back with false reports to rouse public sentiments.

 

These incidents are all linked, as someone has an axe to grind against us. Goodwill efforts like peacekeeping corps and food aid will immediately be forgotten when greed and jealousy rears its ugly head, especially among the wealth/power grabbing politicians.

 

All the superficial goodwill and courtesy cannot be taken for granted, and can vanish in seconds against a bigger movement. Hope this will be a good lesson for the future leaders PAP, WP or otherwise.

 

You need to give the folks at MFA more credit than that. Do you really think that they are not aware of the geopolitical realities and undercurrents constantly shifting under their footing, and that they are as naive as you've just described?

 

It is more a case of damned if you do, and damned if you don't. Diplomacy is a game of cat and mouse in the shadows, with the Goliath might very well becoming the David in the very next instant, and vice versa. There is no win-win manoeuvre in this deck of cards and MFA knows that - so they are in a game of containment and engagement.

 

Don't talk it personally, but it really irks me when people start talking as if they are some sort of political sage or economics guru and dismissing everything our Ministries/senior civil servants do or plan as dumb, childish or naive. While there are many valid criticisms of the top echelon and real questions about their competency ability, it is all relative, and most of our senior civil servants are not that naive, "paper generals" or narrow-minded.

 

Learn to separate the politics from governance, and give credit where it is due. There are many political undercurrents to navigate and be mindful of, and things are never as simple as they seem. It would not surprise me if this move was premeditated and our folks informed beforehand to prepare for containment in advance.

[Lightbringer]

 

Indon stopping gas sales to foreign countries. Those who are presently buying incl SG,MY,KOR,CN....

The regulation on National Energy Policy requires the government to stop exports of gas and coal to guarantee domestic supply.

 

 

 

Not sure how true this is, as there are long-term commercial Gas Service Agreements in place to guarantee the flow of NG from Indo to SG, at least on paper. Of course, if Indo is determined to curtail gas exports, then they can do so but that would greatly damage their international standing in the business community and jeopardize their business interests in other countries as well, not to mention the backlash that would result viz their own FDI. Such a move has enormous consequences and would not be taken lightly.

 

In any case, it is a good thing our LNG facilities are already up and running, with further expansion of capacity in the pipeline. Hopefully, in another five to ten years, we will no longer be reliant on piped NG from Indonesia. I am pretty sure they are already aware of the diminishing value of their leverage over this horizon, and are eager to maximize every inch of leverage they can squeeze from their current supply before their pipelines are made redundant and they lose their influence in the region viz gas supplies.

 

Just look at Gazprom's curtailment of NG supplies to Western Europe by shutting down the main pipeline through Ukraine and Georgia, and the resulting backlash and development which followed. New infrastructure and pipelines were built to connect Western Europe to new gas fields outside of Russian influence, investment and development of LNG technology and facilities accelerated, and in less than a decade the NG markets and industries was revolutionized. Necessity is the mother of invention, and let's see how Indonesia will react accordingly.

[Sosaria]

I just find it funny that knowing the indons were unlikely to backtrack on the naming issue (which self-respecting country would anyway, what more in their election year??) - our side still insist on highlighting the issue... for what gain, I wonder?

 

As another poster had mentioned, just keep quiet, no one would know - and in the off-chance that somebody else highlighted it - just state that the indons can name their ships whatever they want actually. Pretend-friend is better than outright confrontation, IMHO - the speak softly, while carrying a big stick style... then in future, cut down on the aid, making sure they get the message indirectly.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Sosaria

[Lightbringer]

I just find it funny that knowing the indons were unlikely to backtrack on the naming issue (which self-respecting country would anyway, what more in their election year??) - our side still insist on highlighting the issue... for what gain, I wonder?

 

As another poster had mentioned, just keep quiet, no one would know - and in the off-chance that somebody else highlighted it - just state that the indons can name their ships whatever they want actually. Pretend-friend is better than outright confrontation, IMHO - the speak softly, while carrying a big stick style... then in future, cut down on the aid, making sure they get the message indirectly.

 

I don't know who with half a brain would actually believe that in this day and age, nobody in the international community - never mind diplomatic or military circles, but even common folks - would have picked up on this provocation and overlooked it. That's pretty much the dumbest suggestion I've read so far in this thread, by far. You really have no idea how weak it would have made us look on a national scale - it would be global humiliation!

 

In a similar vein, imagine if Germany commissioned a warship christened the SMS Hitler. Think long and hard about it before coming up with another absurd suggestion.

[Lightbringer]

 

 

yeah, i wonder why too....

 

this is the real time to see if they really mean whether they for Singaporeans or not, or Singapore for that matter

 

dun tok tok and create trouble in the minds of those you want to manipulate. Walk the talk! Our sovereignty here is at stake

 

So in what capacity do you suggest Chee or Ravi make statements on the behalf of the sovereign state of Singapore as on this matter, or even considered?

 

I don't even see the relevance of linking Chee or Ravi to this matter when they have yet to make a squeak or comment on this matter publicly.

 

The sovereign affairs of Singapore will be represented by its elected representatives, or people of authority. There is a difference between advocating for internal change and claiming to represent Singapore in its sovereign affairs, and I expected you to be able to distinguish between the two. Are you able to?

[Sosaria]

 

I don't know who with half a brain would actually believe that in this day and age, nobody in the international community - never mind diplomatic or military circles, but even common folks - would have picked up on this provocation and overlooked it. That's pretty much the dumbest suggestion I've read so far in this thread, by far. You really have no idea how weak it would have made us look on a national scale - it would be global humiliation!

 

In a similar vein, imagine if Germany commissioned a warship christened the SMS Hitler. Think long and hard about it before coming up with another absurd suggestion.

 

Yup, but those two saboteurs don't really come close to your german example leh...

 

As it is, now it is like an internet argument... a lot of name-calling, but essentially back to zero with neither side budging and no gains to be made. At the most, we could've made a tit-for-tat move by naming something that returns the "favour" then see their reaction or if they get the message "quietly".

 

On a side note, I just noticed we were quite close to proving Godwin's Law!

Edited February 10, 2014 by Sosaria

[Tarenn]

Torpedo that frigate and let them have more heroes

[Lightbringer]

 

Yup, but those two saboteurs don't really come close to your german example leh...

 

As it is, now it is like an internet argument... a lot of name-calling, but essentially back to zero with neither side budging and no gains to be made. At the most, we could've made a tit-for-tat move by naming something that returns the "favour" then see their reaction or if they get the message "quietly".

 

On a side note, I just noticed we were quite close to proving Godwin's Law!

 

Sometimes an extreme example has to be drawn for people to better understand the logical underpinnings of a position. If Position A is logical, then Position B which is arrived at by the same logic, but is less "extreme" is also valid.

 

Similarly, if Position C is absurd, so is all other Positions D-Z which are arrived at by the same logic.

 

Extremity is like a splash of ice-cold water on the face to help clarify the issue and remove the smokescreens sometimes.

 

I do not agree with you that it is a lot of name-calling and zero-sum game. It is not win-win, but it also not zero-sum. My opinion is that the positions and statements by our Government officials so far are nuanced, calibrated and well positioned. I note Tan Chuan Jin's comment that "we should never forget". This is a veiled statement that references multiple other issues and considerations in the background that will certainly make the Indos sit up and take closer notice. Chan Chun Sing's response was more direct and straightforward, as is to be expected from a former Chief of Army. But I would have preferred more steel and bite in his statement. However, I reserve my criticism as I am certain there are multiple undercurrents and information behind the scene which I am not privvy to, and I have full confidence in MFA (one of our few Ministries that rarely cock-up) in handling and co-ordinating our responses to this matter.

 

The hawk in me wants to see more steel but let those best-informed make the call. I stand behind every statement our Ministers make and will walk the talk if called to do so.