Evening traffic jam vs No evening ERP. Choose 1

[Baal]

3 times in Singapore.

 

- During Mas Selamat escape, thinking of going JB, called LTA hotline, reported no jam.

Upon arrival at Woodlands CP, for 2 hours, move around 1km.

U-Turn by driving over kerb.

 

- PIE towards Jurong.

15 seconds journey lasted me 2.15hours.

Trailer (Woodlands Group) had flipped over at Adam Flyerover.

 

- Keppel Viaduct.

From Harbourfront to keppel, not moving for 45mins.

Until someone had managed to unblocked the restricted lane towards PSA port, I managed to squeeze thru and escape the jam.

But met with another jam at Lower Delta junction.

 

Total time, 2.45hrs from original 45mins.

1 more, I stuck on Kovan flyover hougang (Kovan murder), <1km, I stuck from 730-1015. 1015 park at Heartland mall, quickly go toilet ....high tide. That jam cost me like 8 Litres of petrol idling crawling.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Baal

[Jellandross]

 

Not entirely true either. Just because the government hypothetically decides to scrap COE, doesn't mean overnight the whole population owns a car. $70K Altis is still pretty expensive to the common man, and $70K for an Altis can still buy at least 2 Altis-es elsewhere. I'm VERY sure that there will still be people thinking like that, plus not to mention, we still have this 50% dp ruling.

 

Fact of the matter is, better road infrastructure as well as diluting the city centre is gonna alleviate "jams" much much more than imposing ERP and pretending there's nothing wrong.

 

the $70K pricing is merely an illustration, which is not my main point. a car's net price changes if the taxation changes anyway. my point is without COE alone, there will be more cars, not less, agree?

 

i definitely agree that better road infra is the most fundamental to improving traffic jam. in fact, i don't think our current road infra is that shoddy either. but it's also the most expensive option from the govt's perspective. but i feel our govt can afford lah since ours is one of the richest govt in the world. debate all we want, but we'll not see the end of ERP, which is essentially toll. it's used here, it's used everywhere else in the world.

 

 

yours is the textbook reply. but if you understand economics of opportunity cost you will realise that if anyone who bought the car and don't use it, he is losing the opportunity cost. tying the car to coe with fixed lifespan, means the coe value will depreciate if one doesn't use it, he loses the value of it. if he uses it, he consumes the value of it. hence the coe actually encourages them to drive the car out onto any roads and therefore negates the erp who persuades people to keep the car out of those designated roads.

 

you're not wrong to say that the 10-year COE implicitly encourages car owners to maximize their car utilization. in fact, it's a given. i think the govt's idea is that this is a controlled chaos. i can control the absolute number of cars on the road via COE and that's good enough for the moment. scrapping COE alone will definitely be worse (more cars), agree?

 

but i can't absolutely control how/where this pool of cars will be used so i use ERP to regulate it as best as possible, which they should have realized by now that it isn't working to a certain extent. people who can afford or have no choice like running a business, will still go to these spots and jam up the road. so what to do? like i mentioned, make ERP so expensive that much less people can afford it. or very expensive utilization-based ERP (maybe can scrap COE) like the GPS solution that the govt is testing now.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Jellandross

[Acemundo]

 

you're not wrong to say that the 10-year COE implicitly encourages car owners to maximize their car utilization. in fact, it's a given. i think the govt's idea is that this is a controlled chaos. i can control the absolute number of cars on the road via COE and that's good enough for the moment. scrapping COE alone will definitely be worse (more cars), agree?

 

but i can't absolutely control how/where this pool of cars will be used so i use ERP to regulate it as best as possible, which they should have realized by now that it isn't working to a certain extent. people who can afford or have no choice like running a business, will still go to these spots and jam up the road. so what to do? like i mentioned, make ERP so expensive that much less people can afford it. or very expensive utilization-based ERP (maybe can scrap COE) like the GPS solution that the govt is testing now.

agreed. my view is coe is actually not a high initial hurdle to manage the controlled chaos that there is not much efficacy to it then.

 

and I also have been exhalting the need for a much higher erp which is effective in road usage distribution. and therefore the coe should be removed to remain equitable for people that buys a car and seldom use it or use it at times or roads that don't contribute to congestion. plus of course, it won't negate the effectiveness of the erp.

[Jellandross]

agreed. my view is coe is actually not a high initial hurdle to manage the controlled chaos that there is not much efficacy to it then.

 

and I also have been exhalting the need for a much higher erp which is effective in road usage distribution. and therefore the coe should be removed to remain equitable for people that buys a car and seldom use it or use it at times or roads that don't contribute to congestion. plus of course, it won't negate the effectiveness of the erp.

 

i think we're arriving at similar conclusion. i would go further to say that make car prices really affordable (but maybe not as cheap as in the USA) to give everyone a chance to buy a car as a personal choice. but implement utilization-based toll (i mean really really expensive) on the road so people only use it in a very controlled manner. utilization-based toll will also eat into our monthly expenditure and theoretically has no upper limit, so i think it has a more perceptible impact than car loans.

 

p/s: i'm of course ignoring the side-effect of having to build more parking spaces if cars become affordable one day.

Edited January 10, 2014 by Jellandross

[Acemundo]

 

i think we're arriving at similar conclusion. i would go further to say that make car prices really affordable (but maybe not as cheap as in the USA) to give everyone a chance to buy a car as a personal choice. but implement utilization-based toll (i mean really really expensive) on the road so people only use it in a very controlled manner. utilization-based toll will also eat into our monthly expenditure and theoretically has no upper limit, so i think it has a more perceptible impact than car loans.

 

p/s: i'm of course ignoring the side-effect of having to build more parking spaces if cars become affordable one day.

yep, good that we are for the same type of congestion measures. by and large such parking are home parking if we make ownership cheaper but usage much more costly. most times home parking like those at HDB car parks are still plentiful.

[Super7]

yep, good that we are for the same type of congestion measures. by and large such parking are home parking if we make ownership cheaper but usage much more costly. most times home parking like those at HDB car parks are still plentiful.

Also, hdb parking lots can be sized for up to medium size cars ie B&B and fine big size cars using these lots, or charge double parking fee.

[Jackson_ngo]

End of the day, we are still relying on money policies.

Any other alternatives to discourage people from driving?

[Ktglfc]

End of the day, we are still relying on money policies.

Any other alternatives to discourage people from driving?

 

Nope.

Money is the only thing that can hurt a person ...

burnt a hole in the pocket = burn a heart

[Deividz]

Support Morning ERP but not Evening ERP.

I seriously dont think it makes much difference.

Pay more money but no improvement.

[Jackson_ngo]

 

Nope.

Money is the only thing that can hurt a person ...

burnt a hole in the pocket = burn a heart

Thus end of the day, its the less wealthy who feels the pain.

[Damienic]

My answer is cannot choose. Because apparently there is still plenty of evening traffic jam even with evening ERP around. Seriously it doesn't help. It is just shifting of traffic from a boundary to another boundary.

[Vhtfhwlego]

After commuting daily from North to South and back again, basically the entire length of SLE and CTE daily, I went for option C.

 

I moved house. Now my daily commute is 5-10 minutes, no erp no jam

I see people caught in Sengkang traffic jams every time I go ikea tampines for dinner will bring a smile to my face.

I reached home pick up son & go for dinner where else for them, havent reach home yet.

[Mason016]

I see people caught in Sengkang traffic jams every time I go ikea tampines for dinner will bring a smile to my face.

I reached home pick up son & go for dinner where else for them, havent reach home yet.

 

You work Loyang mah.

[Vhtfhwlego]

yours is the textbook reply. but if you understand economics of opportunity cost you will realise that if anyone who bought the car and don't use it, he is losing the opportunity cost. tying the car to coe with fixed lifespan, means the coe value will depreciate if one doesn't use it, he loses the value of it. if he uses it, he consumes the value of it. hence the coe actually encourages them to drive the car out onto any roads and therefore negates the erp who persuades people to keep the car out of those designated roads.

Wanna praise you but can't.

 

Car balance 14 months to 10 years and before are the list of parts I changed for during the last 2 months.

Timing belt changed which last 50,000km

Upper arm & lower arms changed will last 80k.

Inner & outer tierod changed last 100k.

Tyres changed last 40k.

 

I average drive 29,000 km per year (2400km per month) = 33,800 km for 14 months.

Because of car having fixed lifespan, I need to utilize the parts I had changed.

Now I am clocking 3100km per month = forecast 43,400k for 14months.

 

Increase of 9600km.

 

 

 

If car have no fixed lifespan, I will buy 2 cars and park the "bigger car" at home and use a smaller & greener car for daily transport.

 

You work Loyang mah.

I work at Changi airfreight centre.

 

But I have to drive 14 km more per day, saving of 35mins to reach home/office because of the jams at Loyang.

My favourite workplace still at lower delta road.

Wife at SGH and have option to drive back via CTE or MCE.

[Darthrevan]

While not wanting to OT or start a hogger vs speedster argument, I do notice that typically just after a congested stretch (Take northbound CTE for one good example, after PIE exit), drivers tend to maintain a slow speed even when the road is clear ahead of them. Many are driving at below 80km/h slowing everyone down behind them, even those on the first lane. Even though the road is clear for them, they have no idea of the effect trickling down to the drivers @ 1km or so behind them. IMHO, they are the real culprits of heavy traffic, if they cannot adapt to change in traffic flow quickly, at least give way to those who can behind them.

 

for the impatient..skip to 1:00