LTA focus group discussion

[Happily1986]

I think people are not happy that the current trend/method of distributing COEs may eventually favor the rich at the expense of the not-rich despite the latter working as hard as they could. If left UN-checked, the current way may end up say 95% of the cars in Spore are owned by only 5% of the population ( the really rich ). Which also could also means most of the road space, a public asset, will be used by only 5% of the population. The other 95% could just suck their thumbs.

 

The use of public assets/space etc should not be the privilege of only 5% of the population, no?

 

That's why there are public transport traveling on public roads carrying the rest of the 95% lor!

 

As a policy maker, you have not one but a polyglot of problems assaulting your front everyday. everyday.

 

Question is, which do you settle first? What is the priority number you accord to each? What will then be your deliverables? if those problems mentioned are intertwined and unfortunately mutually antagonistic, then what next?

 

So you go on and on about the the prospect of roads being reserved for the 5%. How about now when the roads are so clogged up, 100% of Singapore are affected be it you like it or not, private or public transport?

 

What is your action item? Continue tinkering and experimenting with a psychedelic policy that can assuage your concern OR, slap the current problem in the thighs, the current problem being, our roads are simply overcrowded right now! Then, does the 50% down payment and COE quota reduction still seem excessive then? We need to see a short term reduction of the vehicular population you know, pronto! What say you then? pray tell.

[Aventador]

There should never have been even a consideration of making COEs cheaper for those who cannot afford the market price

 

Please note that the actual value of a COE is $1. Any price above this is set by the market based on what people can afford to pay.

 

If you have 2 kids and 1 maid , so your monthly expenses are high, and hence cannot buy a brand new car. Then just settle for a used car.

 

Why should the policy be changed to ensure social equality? As mentioned before so should we socially equalize Rolex watches?

 

The government should only concentrate on making the public transport system the best in the world. That is all that should be done.

 

But if they fear losing the middle class votes, then just make it easier for them to buy a used car.

 

If I was in the cabinet, here are the changes I would implement :

 

1) revamp the car COE into 3 categories

 

Cat A - OMV of $20,000 and below

Cat B - OMV of $20,001 and above

Cat E - open cat for immediate registrations, fully transferable

 

2) Cat A will get 60% of the COE quota

Cat B 30%

Cat E 10%

 

The current Cat E is b-------t, they are all being used for Cat B cars, so now there are actually 600 cat B COE vs 300 Cat A COEs

 

3) financing for new cars, 50% loan, 5 yrs tenure

Financing for used cars, OMV below $20,000 - 80% loan, 7 yrs tenure

All other used cars, 50% loan, 5 yrs tenure.

 

4) Foreigners and Singapore PR pay additional levy on COE, to Encourage them to become citizens. Singapore is not a high class hotel for them to use and leave

 

5) I will get PM to hold a press conference and talk about new policies, and emphasis that it is not a God given right in the constitution that you must buy a new car.

 

But the govt will help those who need a car by ensuring used budget cars are affordable to buy through the easier loan policies.

 

Those with disabled family members will get preferential loan interest rates for the budget used cars.

 

So at the end of the day, you want a new car, work harder or save more.

 

You have 4 kids, autistic kids, 6 elderly grandparents etc etc etc, we will help you afford a used car.

 

[Voodooman]

There should never have been even a consideration of making COEs cheaper for those who cannot afford the market price

 

Please note that the actual value of a COE is $1. Any price above this is set by the market based on what people can afford to pay.

 

If you have 2 kids and 1 maid , so your monthly expenses are high, and hence cannot buy a brand new car. Then just settle for a used car.

 

Why should the policy be changed to ensure social equality? As mentioned before so should we socially equalize Rolex watches?

 

The government should only concentrate on making the public transport system the best in the world. That is all that should be done.

 

But if they fear losing the middle class votes, then just make it easier for them to buy a used car.

 

If I was in the cabinet, here are the changes I would implement :

 

1) revamp the car COE into 3 categories

 

Cat A - OMV of $20,000 and below

Cat B - OMV of $20,001 and above

Cat E - open cat for immediate registrations, fully transferable

 

2) Cat A will get 60% of the COE quota

Cat B 30%

Cat E 10%

 

The current Cat E is b-------t, they are all being used for Cat B cars, so now there are actually 600 cat B COE vs 300 Cat A COEs

 

3) financing for new cars, 50% loan, 5 yrs tenure

Financing for used cars, OMV below $20,000 - 80% loan, 7 yrs tenure

All other used cars, 50% loan, 5 yrs tenure.

 

4) Foreigners and Singapore PR pay additional levy on COE, to Encourage them to become citizens. Singapore is not a high class hotel for them to use and leave

 

5) I will get PM to hold a press conference and talk about new policies, and emphasis that it is not a God given right in the constitution that you must buy a new car.

 

But the govt will help those who need a car by ensuring used budget cars are affordable to buy through the easier loan policies.

 

Those with disabled family members will get preferential loan interest rates for the budget used cars.

 

So at the end of the day, you want a new car, work harder or save more.

 

You have 4 kids, autistic kids, 6 elderly grandparents etc etc etc, we will help you afford a used car.

 

I agree with some of your views but they contradict each other. Example, no need social equality but more Cat A COE, more loans for the poor, etc.

 

And different financing rule for new and used cars will result in 1 month old used car becoming more expensive than new car. The rich will buy new car in cash and sell in used car market for profit. The rule should be the same. Full cash for COE is even better as taxes should be paid upfront, not via 7 years instalments.

 

Used car prices are a function of new car prices (unless very old car, then it comes close to scrap value), I don't understand why people keep harping on "no money, then buy used car". Really, if no money, don't buy car, period. We all have an interest to keep COE prices at reasonable level and our traffic smooth flowing but keeping demand high for used car will support high COE prices as high used car prices drive up COE further. It is like resale HDB prices driving up the whole property market.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Voodooman

[Throttle2]

Hi People,

 

I went for the Focus group discussion at LTA yesterday and below are my general comments.

 

1) We met up with the directors and assistant directors of LTA. The directors are ok but the assistant directors looked really young... is assistant director at LTA an entry level job? Frankly, initial impression is not too good, but this is just my personal opinon.

 

2) We touched on the dealer COE bidding issue. One of the directors said that currently, consumer has a choice of bidding for themselves and going through the dealer so it is ok. When we mentioned that the car price is higher if we bid COE ourselves, he was surprised. He thought the car price will be lower if we bid ourselves since the dealers does not have to provide the COE bidding service for us. I was shocked how DISCONNECTED the director of LTA is with the situation on the ground. Or am I wrong since it was sometime since I bought my car. Is it still true that car price from the dealer will be significantly higher one bidded for the COE oneself?

 

3) On the other hand, I applaud the sincerity of the LTA in orgainising this and having their directors talking to the public. I have went to the talk by MND on housing issue and it is a HUGE waste of time. The MND staff there are basically MUTES. They have no OPINONS and just say yes, we will consider it. At MND, it is just public talking to public and they invited every tom dick and harry who signed up. So you ended up listening to really stupid things. LTA's discussion is different as they selected participants based on the survey feedback so you get mostly people who have a pretty good grasp on the situation. The LTA staff are participating actively in the discussion. Although some of the replies are shocking, overall they are MUCH MUCH better than the mutes from MND.

 

 

 

Some guy had a pretty good suggestion for COE revamp. Instead of cat A and cat B to differentiate luxury and mas market cars, we should only have one Cat. The COE price will be a multiple of the car "value" set by LTA using a transparent formula (average MSRP of the car in other markets). People bid by points. Assuming a base points of 100. Example, if the winning bid for COE this month is 120 points, a ferarri buyer needs to pay like $500k (LTA determined car value) *120/100=$600k, a Nissan Sunny buyer needs to pay $40k*120/100=$48k

 

This I thought is really good. If LTA thinks that there should be some form of social equity (that is why there is cat A, B in the first place) setting a HARD limit like 1600CC is very hard to do. How do you set the two cats? Why is 1601 CC in catb while 1599 CC is cat A? I think the above suggestion can make luxury car buyers pay more and yet avoid this Categorizing issue.

 

what do you guys think?

 

 

Brother, your life not complicated enough is it?

[Throttle2]

COE only one cat for cars regardless of capacity becos the space taken on the road is basically the same.

 

COE set at benchmark $50k, to be paid in cash. No bidding required.

Unused COE will be confiscated at only half value after 1mth.

These would ensure that no one hoards COEs, profits from it or loses from it.

You want, you buy, you use.

 

Price of COE moves in tandem with Economic progress of country.

If improvement is 5%, COE follows with a 5% increase.

If economy falls by 5%, COE falls by 5%

 

Loans stay at max 5yrs and max 50% of car price (as per my suggestion years ago).

 

Either that or scrap COE completely.

Refund all unused COE values to car owners

Increase ERP by 3x.

Zero loans allowed for car purchases.

One car per name.

So no matter how rich you are only one car to your name. (Sure if you have big family, go ahead, register one car per adult 21yrs of age)

Cars registered in companies name cannot be used privately. Penalty is $50k fine first time, second time confiscation of car and revokation of right to own car in personal name.

 

There.....solved.

 

 

By the way, i have been in meetings with LTA directors, URA directors, etc...all cant do anything.

Why ? becos all got no say. I dont blame them, thats the system

 

Time wasting experience, to say the least

Edited July 6, 2013 by Throttle2

[Aventador]

I agree with some of your views but they contradict each other. Example, no need social equality but more Cat A COE, more loans for the poor, etc. high COE prices as high used car prices drive up COE further.

 

As much as I disagree with social equality for non necessities like cars. IF I was in cabinet , I would push for allocating more COEs to Cat A to stay elected.

 

But will leave prices to the market.

 

Good point though on the 1 month old car being resold to abuse the system. So policy can be fine tuned so that special loans for low omv used cars applies past a certain age, probably a year.

[Voodooman]

COE only one cat for cars regardless of capacity becos the space taken on the road is basically the same.

 

COE set at benchmark $50k, to be paid in cash. No bidding required.

Unused COE will be confiscated at only half value after 1mth.

These would ensure that no one hoards COEs, profits from it or loses from it.

You want, you buy, you use.

 

Price of COE moves in tandem with Economic progress of country.

If improvement is 5%, COE follows with a 5% increase.

If economy falls by 5%, COE falls by 5%

 

Loans stay at max 5yrs and max 50% of car price (as per my suggestion years ago).

 

Either that or scrap COE completely.

Refund all unused COE values to car owners

Increase ERP by 3x.

Zero loans allowed for car purchases.

One car per name.

So no matter how rich you are only one car to your name. (Sure if you have big family, go ahead, register one car per adult 21yrs of age)

Cars registered in companies name cannot be used privately. Penalty is $50k fine first time, second time confiscation of car and revokation of right to own car in personal name.

 

There.....solved.

 

 

By the way, i have been in meetings with LTA directors, URA directors, etc...all cant do anything.

Why ? becos all got no say. I dont blame them, thats the system

 

Time wasting experience, to say the least

 

I am all for option 2. Option 1 may not work as there may be enough COE if fixed market clearance price is not set correctly. And during good times, people will cheong COE knowing GDP very good and prices are going to be adjusted soon. Shortage looms.

 

Just use COE and tax parking in congested area jialat jialat but make sure they improve public transport first, otherwise more kpkb from everyone.

 

[Wt_know]

demand (buyer) > supply (coe)

 

no need PHD or rocket scientist to explain that when demand > supply, price goes up

in order for the price to come down, also no need PHD or rocket scientist to suggest either curb demand or increase supply

 

the current implementation is to curb demand .... price out everyone who cannot pay for it because increase supply is out of the consideration

so, no matter what suggestions are put forward if the suggestion did not curb demand lta might find it counter productive

Edited July 6, 2013 by Wt_know

[Wind30]

COE only one cat for cars regardless of capacity becos the space taken on the road is basically the same.

 

COE set at benchmark $50k, to be paid in cash. No bidding required.

Unused COE will be confiscated at only half value after 1mth.

These would ensure that no one hoards COEs, profits from it or loses from it.

You want, you buy, you use.

 

Price of COE moves in tandem with Economic progress of country.

If improvement is 5%, COE follows with a 5% increase.

If economy falls by 5%, COE falls by 5%

 

Loans stay at max 5yrs and max 50% of car price (as per my suggestion years ago).

 

Either that or scrap COE completely.

Refund all unused COE values to car owners

Increase ERP by 3x.

Zero loans allowed for car purchases.

One car per name.

So no matter how rich you are only one car to your name. (Sure if you have big family, go ahead, register one car per adult 21yrs of age)

Cars registered in companies name cannot be used privately. Penalty is $50k fine first time, second time confiscation of car and revokation of right to own car in personal name.

 

There.....solved.

 

 

By the way, i have been in meetings with LTA directors, URA directors, etc...all cant do anything.

Why ? becos all got no say. I dont blame them, thats the system

 

Time wasting experience, to say the least

 

both your policies do not restrict number of cars.

 

Policy 1 has a problem of the 50k price.. that one is impossible to set the number correctly. how you know 50k works? Too low you get congestion, too high people complain. Not workable in real life.

 

Policy 2 is to tax usage lor... dunno if that will work but it will be a drastic change of policy. Actually I am in favour to moving to taxing usage more. I mean if I want to buy a car for my parents to fetch my kid from childcare during 2pm, and for them to go for tea in the afternoons, why should I be paying for such and expensive COEs. A more moderate way to implement Policy 2 is to create 2 cat of COEs. 1 is the normal kind. The second cat will basically need to pay ERP like 5x. It will be like an experiment to get the 5x number correct.

 

It will be dangerous to just go ahead and implement this as you don't know what is the ERP multiplier to apply. If everyone start to buy cars, you end up needing to up the ERP to much higher to control congestion and the population will be very unhappy.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Wind30

[Wind30]

demand (buyer) > supply (coe)

 

no need PHD or rocket scientist to explain that when demand > supply, price goes up

in order for the price to come down, also no need PHD or rocket scientist to suggest either curb demand or increase supply

 

the current implementation is to curb demand .... price out everyone who cannot pay for it because increase supply is out of the consideration

so, no matter what suggestions are put forward if the suggestion did not curb demand lta might find it counter productive

 

Increasing supply is not out of the consideration.

 

LTA can buy back COEs with 3-5 years left at todays prices...

[Maseratigood]

you meant the younger generation 'taking over' the older generation. More younger generation are degree holders and are entering the market with a much higher starting salary (as one guy mentioned, the LTA already got younger assistant directors). You notice many younger singaporeans are owning cars. Their gf/wife are also probably degree holders with higher paying jobs so a car for the family if definitely easy. Its common to see younger bf/gf BOTH having cars of their own.

these husband/wife (likely professionals) may not be able to compete with the really rich in COE bids one day.... thats why it is possible the latter (about 5- 10% of the population?) will rule 95% of the public roads (which are built with public funds)..... the husband/wife suck their thumbs...

 

i trust our govt will finetune / change the existing rules to avoid such a scenario

[Maseratigood]

I am all for option 2. Option 1 may not work as there may be enough COE if fixed market clearance price is not set correctly. And during good times, people will cheong COE knowing GDP very good and prices are going to be adjusted soon. Shortage looms.

 

Just use COE and tax parking in congested area jialat jialat but make sure they improve public transport first, otherwise more kpkb from everyone.

Does anyone know how Tokyo manage to make people rely mainly on public transport, not private cars, moving around the city areas? I always see very few private cars, but only taxis, limos on the streets, lots of users on the trains/buses. Dont really think they rely on ERP/COE/ARF to achieve this. Yes, their parking charges are high, and buyers need proof they have a parking lot before they can buy their car. But is the the only disincentive to drivers who want to drive in city areas? What they can achieve, without relying on COE/ERP/ARF etc, can we also?

[Maseratigood]

As a policy maker, you have not one but a polyglot of problems assaulting your front everyday. everyday.

 

Question is, which do you settle first? What is the priority number you accord to each? What will then be your deliverables? if those problems mentioned are intertwined and unfortunately mutually antagonistic, then what next?

 

So you go on and on about the the prospect of roads being reserved for the 5%. How about now when the roads are so clogged up, 100% of Singapore are affected be it you like it or not, private or public transport?

 

What is your action item? Continue tinkering and experimenting with a psychedelic policy that can assuage your concern OR, slap the current problem in the thighs, the current problem being, our roads are simply overcrowded right now! Then, does the 50% down payment and COE quota reduction still seem excessive then? We need to see a short term reduction of the vehicular population you know, pronto! What say you then? pray tell.

No need to go round and round.... get out and solve the problems of inefficient/unfriendly/crowded public transport system..... make them the prefered mode of daily commute to work etc. We really have a late start on this. If sufficient funds/attentions were in place many years ago, we would have a decent train/bus system by now and at least a big chunk of current car owners will use trains/buses instead of crowding the limite road space with their cars. Yes, sadly it takes years to catch up with the infrastructure for trains, but during the catch up periods (construction of more trainlines/stations), they can consider drastic/effect tweaks to the fare system to spread the load on the train/bus systems during peak hours (eg reduce fares / free rides etc), introduce flexi work hours (starting with govt offices etc, set the example so to speak), relocte offices (govt) outside CBD as much as possible, decentralise busness centres, promote school buses for ferrying kids to schools (current parents fetch kids to schools cause traffic congestions), etc etc....

 

There's no way the bidding system in COE/carownership allocation can stop the rich from dominating the market, and the limited road space we have. In fact it encourages this, and making the not-rich no where to go ----> cant afford car, but public transport system sucks...

Edited July 6, 2013 by Maseratigood

[Wt_know]

alamak ... the answer is right there

 

just make people cannot afford car ... as simple as that

if cannot afford ... die die must take public transport la

if you drink late and miss the train ... you will stay in the usd$20 capsule hotel because taxi will cost usd$200 to bring you home

 

Does anyone know how Tokyo manage to make people rely mainly on public transport, not private cars, moving around the city areas?

Edited July 6, 2013 by Wt_know

[Voodooman]

alamak ... the answer is right there

 

just make people cannot afford car ... as simple as that

if cannot afford ... die die must take public transport la

if you drink late and miss the train ... you will stay in the usd$20 capsule hotel because taxi will cost usd$200 to bring you home

 

Does anyone know how Tokyo manage to make people rely mainly on public transport, not private cars, moving around the city areas?

 

Cars in tokyo are cheap and most family has a car that is used on weekend only but parking is very expensive and limited, no seasoned parking for even very senior managers. Public transport is however very good.

 

 

[Cluboxed]

It's too late bro. What was the purpose of implementing the Euro 4 emission then? To have a cleaner environment right?

 

Look at the number of beat up vans and lorries running ard now. Have to than till 2017 before they are all scrap metal.

 

Total failure.

 

yes, i know...the Early Turnover Scheme is not doing as well too...lol

[Fcw75]

yes, i know...the Early Turnover Scheme is not doing as well too...lol

 

That one bigger joke, cash for clunkers.

 

They make it so complicated. How they expect those owner of the lorries and vans to understand? Scholars for you my friend.

 

3 out of 40000 scrapped their vehicles.

 

 

 

 

[Darthrevan]

When this happens, it's ok, provided the national pledge which tells us about equality, is re-written with the word "equality" deleted

 

the "equality" in the national pledge is an aspiration..as defined by the MIWs

 

anyway there is no true equality in the world except a perfect communist state..even China and Russia had opened up