LTA focus group discussion

[Wind30]

I like to own a car and be able to drive around too. The feeling is different from taking cabs or worst still, bus and MRT. But if everyone had access to buy a car, then the roads will be overcongested, and it will partially defeat the purpose of driving then.

 

Car population should be controlled, as much as car utilisation. The COE and ERP sounds good in theory, but I think the flaw is in implementation and the lack of a responsiveness to the system. Previously, luxury / powerful cars were usually bigger CC engines, but manufacturers who want to compete in certain markets will obviously cater to the whims and wants of the market. So if smaller CC cars pay a lower price for COE / road tax, the manufacturers will play according to the rules. But the rules / policies are not changing as fast as the market is changing, so currently, you can get a luxury 1.6T car for the same COE / road tax cost as a BnB car. Obviously, if the price differences (of the base cost of the car) isn't too vast, people will rather get a more luxurious car while paying a similar price.

 

It's no point punishing those who can afford a car to benefit those who can't afford a car, or even be seen to pander to the masses. I'm not from a rich family, nor am I a high incomer earner who can afford a car, but I cringe whenever I see people wanting to punish the rich for buying Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Making the rich pay more for the cars will push demand down, but it's punishing the rich to benefit the poor and pandering to the masses who can't or wouldn't think for their own future.

 

Those who studied history, will know how taxation came about. How taxes were initially levied on the rich to pay for certain infrastructures or wars, and the poor were conned into voting for it, as it would benefit them. However, as time went by, the taxes trickled down, and now, almost everyone is paying some form of tax.

 

My view is that if the prices of supercars get too expensive, the rich can always buy more of the cheaper cars, and take up more road space, or more COEs, which will eventually screw the system up again, by making the prices higher for the cheaper cars, once again, making it unaffordable for the poorer folks.

 

Nobody is entitled to a car. If you can afford it, by all means. But if you are a marginal owner, ask yourself again, if you cannot pay for the car (in real sense, and not by being just able to afford the installments), should you buy a car? If you are a marginal owner, with kids or old folks to take care of, aren't their expenses enough to trouble you already? Life without a car is more of a hassle at times, but buying a car to have the cachet of owning a car, or just to ease a little difficulties in life. Is that worth working the rest of your life to pay for those expensive assistance?

 

In the meeting there is a small group who question the need for such social equity measures. The majority and LTA still feels that there is a need for such measures for whatever reasons. My personal reason is that if REALLY left on its own, I feel because the supply of COEs are so small to limit congestion, we will really end up with mostly luxury cars on the road.

 

However, I hope that if we are to have some sort of criteria in COE allocation other than pure auction, it should be for a purpose. To me, I think our birth rate is the biggest issue we face as a nation. IF that is not fixed, we will end up as a country of FTs and new citizens. You can preach that starting a family is a personal responsibility, blah, blah, blah and at the end of the day if nothing is done, status quo will remain.

 

Having a car for a family of young kids very useful especially if both parents are working and the children is deposited at the childcare or in laws. Is it a need?? I don't know but making a car more affordable to families is definately going to help.

[Wind30]

Everyone wants ways to make it more difficult in getting a car for those who are richer. When people richer than you can't afford a luxury car, they will go for a b&b car. If they cannot afford cars, you cannot afford to take the bus liao. Tweak all you want, you need to realise that those who have more spending power than you will always be ahead of you in purchasing anything.

 

duh... ya isn't the above obvious... so is that an argument for doing nothing?

[Mysportwish]

talk so much also nothing will improve.. price will keep going up as we have many richer ppls moving to red hot

 

they have already disconnected with the ground.... if they want and sincere to be connected, they should read MCF forum regularly

[Cheridan]

Two words for them to consider: Family Nucleus. Learn from HDB.

 

HDB solved the public housing problem effectively but imposed the concept of family nucleus on buying a new HDB flat.

 

Consider the fact that the roads form about 1/3 of land space in Singapore.

 

It is hurting the pockets of many families who truely need a car not for luxury but for necessity. It is just not feasible for a family of 5, of three generations to get a cab or go out in public transport. Especially when the children are really young and the elderly need mobility assistance.

 

Unlike HDB who subsidises the costs of flats (they claim), LTA does not subsidise COEs. In times of lower COE, LTA does not incur a loss.

 

Personally and like many prudent individuals, I put off the purchase of a car for many years till a luxury turned into a necessity with two children and an elderly living under one roof. But the COE was sky high so I prudently settled for a 2nd hand car. As a parent, I cannot help but to think of how many years of enrichment classes I can put my children through just to get a brand new COE.

 

If LTA truely thinks of solving the COE price issue with social equity, a category for families should be considered. It should also be tied to one residential household address (investment units OUT!) formed by a family nucleus. This would be a great help for families in the sandwich class.

 

 

 

[Maseratigood]

Hi People,

 

I went for the Focus group discussion at LTA yesterday and below are my general comments.

.........

2) We touched on the dealer COE bidding issue. One of the directors said that currently, consumer has a choice of bidding for themselves and going through the dealer so it is ok. When we mentioned that the car price is higher if we bid COE ourselves, he was surprised. He thought the car price will be lower if we bid ourselves since the dealers does not have to provide the COE bidding service for us. I was shocked how DISCONNECTED the director of LTA is with the situation on the ground.......

I am equally shocked!!! .... we have the blind lead us!!!??

 

.......... Some guy had a pretty good suggestion for COE revamp. Instead of cat A and cat B to differentiate luxury and mas market cars, we should only have one Cat. The COE price will be a multiple of the car "value" set by LTA using a transparent formula (average MSRP of the car in other markets). People bid by points. Assuming a base points of 100. Example, if the winning bid for COE this month is 120 points, a ferarri buyer needs to pay like $500k (LTA determined car value) *120/100=$600k, a Nissan Sunny buyer needs to pay $40k*120/100=$48k

 

This I thought is really good. If LTA thinks that there should be some form of social equity (that is why there is cat A, B in the first place) setting a HARD limit like 1600CC is very hard to do. How do you set the two cats? Why is 1601 CC in catb while 1599 CC is cat A? I think the above suggestion can make luxury car buyers pay more and yet avoid this Categorizing issue.

Sounds logical and strict forward. . In fact, small city state like Singapore should encourage the use of city-cars (some call them smart-cars), maybe even K-cars which do the same thing of taking 4 persons around but take up much less road spaces. Some forms of incentives eg discount on roadtax etc may be used to promote the use of such space-efficient cars

 

[Matrix0405]

That is a good FR from TS.

 

If the directors are tat clueless, it is likely that all are taking public transport. Director shd all be given subsidies to buy cars so they get a better feel of the ground.

 

COE and ERP is complicated enuff and enuff to manage traffic. The current COE has spiral out of control because of feast and famine situation. From 2000 in 'good time' to 300 for Cat A. Why is this allowed to happen?

 

ERP is priced incorrectly. Only $2 for morning peak is just a tickle. Yet want to charge $2 at 8 pm for people going home defies logic. How abt charging $20 for morning and $0 in the evening?

 

The hard truth is most ppl don want to drive to work. But public tpt is so wanting. The coverage is so poor and so uncomfortable. This is because someone has under invested and under built and wasted many years, holding back the built out. There should be less focus on ROI and GDP and more focus on building for the people.

[Porkerchong]

focus group sia...make my toes laugh..

what other money sucking schemes are they coming up with to suck more $ from motorists??

more ERP gantries??extended ERP operating hours??

now even start to play with SATELLITE ERP to suck even more $..

the bunch of scholars really have very "constructive" and out of box ideas.

[Ooosh]

Don't know what is wrong with the transport system here....all wayang show...all talk no action....

 

I have to agree that the ERP on CTE towards AMK makes no sense to charge people $1 otw back home....WTF...COE so expensive already still want to squeeze us dry????

[Jamomatt]

duh... ya isn't the above obvious... so is that an argument for doing nothing?

 

So you want a communist system just because everyone wants to drive? Look at the arguments, they want cars for everyone... or rather, they want themselves to be the lowest common denominator.

 

Last time when we cannot afford a car, we save up. Take public while keeping some cash aside every month. Propose to make expensive cars more expensive? See lor, rich people also go buy cat A already. Want to make conti cat A more expensive, the rich people buy Toyota Honda Mazda lor.

 

What I am saying is that approaching the problem by trying to curb the rich is no solution at all! They will always be richer and will just pay more for the cars that used to be affordable to the middle income folks. The only way to allow more people to have more cars is to find ways to make it possible for the roads to accommodate more cars.

 

[Dinobros]

So you want a communist system just because everyone wants to drive? Look at the arguments, they want cars for everyone... or rather, they want themselves to be the lowest common denominator.

 

Last time when we cannot afford a car, we save up. Take public while keeping some cash aside every month. Propose to make expensive cars more expensive? See lor, rich people also go buy cat A already. Want to make conti cat A more expensive, the rich people buy Toyota Honda Mazda lor.

 

What I am saying is that approaching the problem by trying to curb the rich is no solution at all! They will always be richer and will just pay more for the cars that used to be affordable to the middle income folks. The only way to allow more people to have more cars is to find ways to make it possible for the roads to accommodate more cars.

 

I agree with you.

The way to go is to use the COE money and for road upgrades, layered highways that are stackable. 3 lanes for each layer (1st lane for ramps up and down only, 2nd and 3rd for cars)

[Maz0608]

In the meeting there is a small group who question the need for such social equity measures. The majority and LTA still feels that there is a need for such measures for whatever reasons. My personal reason is that if REALLY left on its own, I feel because the supply of COEs are so small to limit congestion, we will really end up with mostly luxury cars on the road.

 

However, I hope that if we are to have some sort of criteria in COE allocation other than pure auction, it should be for a purpose. To me, I think our birth rate is the biggest issue we face as a nation. IF that is not fixed, we will end up as a country of FTs and new citizens. You can preach that starting a family is a personal responsibility, blah, blah, blah and at the end of the day if nothing is done, status quo will remain.

 

Having a car for a family of young kids very useful especially if both parents are working and the children is deposited at the childcare or in laws. Is it a need?? I don't know but making a car more affordable to families is definately going to help.

Of course I fully agree that having a car for families with children in tow is going to help ease the hardship of families going out together. But if we are going to help these families who have not yet own a car, can you imagine how many more cars we are going to put on our already congested roads?

 

To limit the number of cars for every family is also not feasible. For a young couple with young children, one car is probably enough. For a family with grown up children still staying with their parents, it may not be enough if they are staying in some ulu places or more than one members needed a car for their livelihood.

[Wind30]

Of course I fully agree that having a car for families with children in tow is going to help ease the hardship of families going out together. But if we are going to help these families who have not yet own a car, can you imagine how many more cars we are going to put on our already congested roads?

 

To limit the number of cars for every family is also not feasible. For a young couple with young children, one car is probably enough. For a family with grown up children still staying with their parents, it may not be enough if they are staying in some ulu places or more than one members needed a car for their livelihood.

 

There is a very big space between doing nothing for families and giving every family a car.

 

I think there should be some policy in giving some sort of priority for COE to families, esp big families.

[Soya]

The whole issue is dem stooopid if u ask me.

 

They cut COE quota........price go up.........create political problem..........create inflation problem..........create social problem........then ask ppl for suggestions to solve a self-made problem - which they themselves created in the first place.

 

Didn't anyone at the focus group suggest that if LTA dun itchy backside and kacau the COE quota, they won't hv this unsolvable problem on their hands??

 

 

[Dinobros]

I agree with you.

The way to go is to use the COE money and for road upgrades, layered highways that are stackable. 3 lanes for each layer (1st lane for ramps up and down only, 2nd and 3rd for cars)

 

 

Alternative, use the ERP system still but give roadtax rebates to those that travel during off peak period.

A Thank You methodology instead of a Spank you methodology.

[Wind30]

The whole issue is dem stooopid if u ask me.

 

They cut COE quota........price go up.........create political problem..........create inflation problem..........create social problem........then ask ppl for suggestions to solve a self-made problem - which they themselves created in the first place.

 

Didn't anyone at the focus group suggest that if LTA dun itchy backside and kacau the COE quota, they won't hv this unsolvable problem on their hands??

 

actually no. Most of us understand that COE quota is necessary and there was a mistake in the past in the quota calculation.

 

no point harping on who was wrong in the past.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Wind30

[Little_prince]

Hi People,

 

I went for the Focus group discussion at LTA yesterday and below are my general comments.

 

1) We met up with the directors and assistant directors of LTA. The directors are ok but the assistant directors looked really young... is assistant director at LTA an entry level job? Frankly, initial impression is not too good, but this is just my personal opinon.

 

2) We touched on the dealer COE bidding issue. One of the directors said that currently, consumer has a choice of bidding for themselves and going through the dealer so it is ok. When we mentioned that the car price is higher if we bid COE ourselves, he was surprised. He thought the car price will be lower if we bid ourselves since the dealers does not have to provide the COE bidding service for us. I was shocked how DISCONNECTED the director of LTA is with the situation on the ground. Or am I wrong since it was sometime since I bought my car. Is it still true that car price from the dealer will be significantly higher one bidded for the COE oneself?

 

3) On the other hand, I applaud the sincerity of the LTA in orgainising this and having their directors talking to the public. I have went to the talk by MND on housing issue and it is a HUGE waste of time. The MND staff there are basically MUTES. They have no OPINONS and just say yes, we will consider it. At MND, it is just public talking to public and they invited every tom dick and harry who signed up. So you ended up listening to really stupid things. LTA's discussion is different as they selected participants based on the survey feedback so you get mostly people who have a pretty good grasp on the situation. The LTA staff are participating actively in the discussion. Although some of the replies are shocking, overall they are MUCH MUCH better than the mutes from MND.

 

 

 

Some guy had a pretty good suggestion for COE revamp. Instead of cat A and cat B to differentiate luxury and mas market cars, we should only have one Cat. The COE price will be a multiple of the car "value" set by LTA using a transparent formula (average MSRP of the car in other markets). People bid by points. Assuming a base points of 100. Example, if the winning bid for COE this month is 120 points, a ferarri buyer needs to pay like $500k (LTA determined car value) *120/100=$600k, a Nissan Sunny buyer needs to pay $40k*120/100=$48k

 

This I thought is really good. If LTA thinks that there should be some form of social equity (that is why there is cat A, B in the first place) setting a HARD limit like 1600CC is very hard to do. How do you set the two cats? Why is 1601 CC in catb while 1599 CC is cat A? I think the above suggestion can make luxury car buyers pay more and yet avoid this Categorizing issue.

 

what do you guys think?

 

depending on depts. Asst directors are actually quite low down the hierarchy usually early 30s.

 

similar to entry level managers in mnc

[Ungtiong]

really what is the ultimate aim?

 

- cheaper COE?

 

 

simply, just agree for gov to increase tax in other areas, like more road tax, more tax in car insurance, higher GST, higher ERP, higher traffic fines.....

 

the real problem is distribution of COE. current method is $$$ which is the fairest method IMO at this moment. Got $$, bigger house, better schools, better holidays etc. How these ppl get rich, they work harder, sacrifice more, take more risk to enjoy their fruits.

 

 

 

Better than lucky draw or even worst, priority staring from the Poor!!!! the SAME system as now just the opposite.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Ungtiong

[Mockngbrd]

2009 no hab so many ppl kpkb