LTA focus group discussion

[Wind30]

Hi People,

 

I went for the Focus group discussion at LTA yesterday and below are my general comments.

 

1) We met up with the directors and assistant directors of LTA. The directors are ok but the assistant directors looked really young... is assistant director at LTA an entry level job? Frankly, initial impression is not too good, but this is just my personal opinon.

 

2) We touched on the dealer COE bidding issue. One of the directors said that currently, consumer has a choice of bidding for themselves and going through the dealer so it is ok. When we mentioned that the car price is higher if we bid COE ourselves, he was surprised. He thought the car price will be lower if we bid ourselves since the dealers does not have to provide the COE bidding service for us. I was shocked how DISCONNECTED the director of LTA is with the situation on the ground. Or am I wrong since it was sometime since I bought my car. Is it still true that car price from the dealer will be significantly higher one bidded for the COE oneself?

 

3) On the other hand, I applaud the sincerity of the LTA in orgainising this and having their directors talking to the public. I have went to the talk by MND on housing issue and it is a HUGE waste of time. The MND staff there are basically MUTES. They have no OPINONS and just say yes, we will consider it. At MND, it is just public talking to public and they invited every tom dick and harry who signed up. So you ended up listening to really stupid things. LTA's discussion is different as they selected participants based on the survey feedback so you get mostly people who have a pretty good grasp on the situation. The LTA staff are participating actively in the discussion. Although some of the replies are shocking, overall they are MUCH MUCH better than the mutes from MND.

 

 

 

Some guy had a pretty good suggestion for COE revamp. Instead of cat A and cat B to differentiate luxury and mas market cars, we should only have one Cat. The COE price will be a multiple of the car "value" set by LTA using a transparent formula (average MSRP of the car in other markets). People bid by points. Assuming a base points of 100. Example, if the winning bid for COE this month is 120 points, a ferarri buyer needs to pay like $500k (LTA determined car value) *120/100=$600k, a Nissan Sunny buyer needs to pay $40k*120/100=$48k

 

This I thought is really good. If LTA thinks that there should be some form of social equity (that is why there is cat A, B in the first place) setting a HARD limit like 1600CC is very hard to do. How do you set the two cats? Why is 1601 CC in catb while 1599 CC is cat A? I think the above suggestion can make luxury car buyers pay more and yet avoid this Categorizing issue.

 

what do you guys think?

Edited July 3, 2013 by Wind30

[Ooosh]

Good idea.

[Jwee85]

How much would the 120 points cost??

If it's $70,000. Then where is the advantage?

 

There will still be a limited quota even using the points system?

 

 

[Ungtiong]

we already have the system and many other countries using it..its call GST.

 

normal GST= 7%

Car GST = 50% (obviously other country not using 50%)

 

its so simple and transparent and GST is already well known to everybody.

 

why must car tax be so complex??? The main culprit is dealers....there need to be a system to limit the number of car each dealer can sell. So we are looking at the wrong solution..we are concentrating on drivers when we should tackle the dealers.

 

If each dealer knows what quota they will get guarantee, i bet 100% that COE will be $1. Unfortunately each dealer kiasu + they want to monopolize + they not scared cause their orders is super long + they dont care if COE is 100k or $1 (all pass thru to buyer) = super high COE. you solve 3 of the 4 points i mention and there is no COE problem liao (kaisu cannot solve lar...its in our DNA)

 

monopolized = Each dealer will be allocated a certain number of guarantee COE. If after a month the dealer cannot sell their cars, their COE allotment is thrown back to the pool for distribution to all. If not enough, then lucky draw to those with confirm orders. This avoid monopoly and we will not get to see so many Altis or Civics on the road.

 

long orders = dealers that have long orders will eventually get more quota, taken from those dealers that continuously cannot sell their quota. At the start it will be painful when popular brands will not be able to sell but it will balance out soon.

 

COE = The dealer will have to absorb 20% of the COE as tax to the company. The higher you bid, the more tax u pay.

 

Only problem is loss of tax $$$..which an be solve by higher ERP. But ERP is a election hot button so it will never be touched. So unfortunately from that we may never solve the COE issue.

 

 

 

 

 

[Wind30]

How much would the 120 points cost??

If it's $70,000. Then where is the advantage?

 

There will still be a limited quota even using the points system?

 

yes but because the "rich" cars will have more expensive COE, it is not so easy for the rich to outbid the poor unless they opt for a cheap Nissan Sunny.

 

Fundamental rationale is the same for Cat A and Cat B. It is to prevent the "Rich" from bidding all the COEs, ie the Cat B COEs for expensive cars are supposed to be more expensive than Cat A.

 

It is to ensure that some of the "cheaper" cars like sunny can get sold. Without any such schemes, as in a pure market based highest bidder win approach with only one Cat, there will be a lot of Cat B cars as the rich can afford to outbid the poor.

 

Now LTA main problem is how to set the Categories.

[Disco]

Like all government bodies, there're many scholars who are promoted very quickly. Hence the young directors you met.

[SGCMbarramundi]

Big car or small car will still cause traffic jam! If the LTA is sincere about easing traffic jam, they should review the road per driving population ratio... When the population reach 6.9M, more issue will arise that show how far sighted they are. In reality, COE is a money generating tool for LTA.

[Wind30]

delete

Edited July 3, 2013 by Wind30

[Fcw75]

Those scholars know nothing about what's happening on the grounds.

 

Look at the mess they created when they implemented the Euro 4 emission standard in 2007 when NONE of the dealers are selling Euro 4 vehicles.

 

They shouldn't even given any bonus (yes, our taxpayer's money).

[Staff69]

just have 80% down payment,

 

if you cannot afford, you just cant.

 

whatever scheme you come up with. if you don't have the money, you dont

[Z_Dash]

just have 80% down payment,

 

if you cannot afford, you just cant.

 

whatever scheme you come up with. if you don't have the money, you dont

 

This will address concerns of the rich who wants to get rid of all cars and own many themselves.

 

We need to look at needs of those with family or elderly needing to be mobile. There is a narrow line between a need and a want.

What we hope is the review to enable those whom needed a car for job or family to be able to own one instead of just pricing it high so only the rich affords it.

[Kangadrool]

2) We touched on the dealer COE bidding issue. One of the directors said that currently, consumer has a choice of bidding for themselves and going through the dealer so it is ok. When we mentioned that the car price is higher if we bid COE ourselves, he was surprised. He thought the car price will be lower if we bid ourselves since the dealers does not have to provide the COE bidding service for us. I was shocked how DISCONNECTED the director of LTA is with the situation on the ground. Or am I wrong since it was sometime since I bought my car. Is it still true that car price from the dealer will be significantly higher one bidded for the COE oneself?

 

You were there, so reckon you should be able to suss out if their reaction/response is feign one or they are really ignorant.

 

 

[Watwheels]

I think ppl are cute. This is like the first time you are talking to these ppl. Unless you have some credentials or some big shot they will not listen to you and your ideas. They say they will consider your suggestion is just patronizing you. When ppl consider themselves to be the top ppl handling the situation the only ppl they will listen to is themselves or their big boss. Don't be silly and think you can make a difference. It's just a show, wayang only.

[Maz0608]

This will address concerns of the rich who wants to get rid of all cars and own many themselves.

 

We need to look at needs of those with family or elderly needing to be mobile. There is a narrow line between a need and a want.

What we hope is the review to enable those whom needed a car for job or family to be able to own one instead of just pricing it high so only the rich affords it.

You also say there is a narrow line between need and want, how do you determine who needs a car more? If review is to take care of those who has elderly or young children, do you know how many ppl would be eligible? Wouldn't it defeat the purpose of car population control in the first place.

 

I do not believe the rich are the only ppl that drives up the price of COE. There are a lot of young folks out there who has just started work not so long ago and putting a car on the road. There are also a lot whom you wonder how the hell they could afford to drive with their meagre salary but somehow they just managed to do it.

 

A lot of suggestions on how to tax or penalize the rich more so that the poorer folks will have a more level playing ground seems naive in my opinion. It will end up enriching the government coffers more and will not help much to the poorer folks. Having said that, I do hope LTA would seriously gave such opinions a serious thought because I belong to the lowest rung of the car driving community and my car will be due in less than 5 years...and yes, I do have young kids and old folks in my family who has mobility issue.

Edited July 3, 2013 by Maz0608

[Mllcg]

How much would the 120 points cost??

If it's $70,000. Then where is the advantage?

 

There will still be a limited quota even using the points system?

 

100 points u pay the listed COE. based on circumstances, points can go up or down.

 

if 120 points u pay 120% of the listed COE

 

80 points likewise

[Mllcg]

You also say there is a narrow line between need and want, how do you determine who needs a car more? If review is to take care of those who has elderly or young children, do you know how many ppl would be eligible? Wouldn't it defeat the purpose of car population control in the first place.

 

I do not believe the rich are the only ppl that drives up the price of COE. There are a lot of young folks out there who has just started work not so long ago and putting a car on the road. There are also a lot whom you wonder how the hell they could afford to drive with their meagre salary but somehow they just managed to do it.

 

A lot of suggestions on how to tax or penalize the rich more so that the poorer folks will have a more level playing ground seems naive in my opinion. It will end up enriching the government coffers more and will not help much to the poorer folks. Having said that, I do hope LTA would seriously gave such opinions a serious thought because I belong to the lowest rung of the car driving community and my car will be due in less than 5 years...and yes, I do have young kids and old folks in my family who has mobility issue.

 

if thats the case, why not make each household eligible for ONE car. you want to buy more, you pay a hell lot more.

 

theres no way to plase everyone

[Hydrocarbon]

A lot of suggestions on how to tax or penalize the rich more so that the poorer folks will have a more level playing ground seems naive in my opinion. It will end up enriching the government coffers more and will not help much to the poorer folks. Having said that, I do hope LTA would seriously gave such opinions a serious thought because I belong to the lowest rung of the car driving community and my car will be due in less than 5 years...and yes, I do have young kids and old folks in my family who has mobility issue.

 

I like to own a car and be able to drive around too. The feeling is different from taking cabs or worst still, bus and MRT. But if everyone had access to buy a car, then the roads will be overcongested, and it will partially defeat the purpose of driving then.

 

Car population should be controlled, as much as car utilisation. The COE and ERP sounds good in theory, but I think the flaw is in implementation and the lack of a responsiveness to the system. Previously, luxury / powerful cars were usually bigger CC engines, but manufacturers who want to compete in certain markets will obviously cater to the whims and wants of the market. So if smaller CC cars pay a lower price for COE / road tax, the manufacturers will play according to the rules. But the rules / policies are not changing as fast as the market is changing, so currently, you can get a luxury 1.6T car for the same COE / road tax cost as a BnB car. Obviously, if the price differences (of the base cost of the car) isn't too vast, people will rather get a more luxurious car while paying a similar price.

 

It's no point punishing those who can afford a car to benefit those who can't afford a car, or even be seen to pander to the masses. I'm not from a rich family, nor am I a high incomer earner who can afford a car, but I cringe whenever I see people wanting to punish the rich for buying Ferraris and Lamborghinis. Making the rich pay more for the cars will push demand down, but it's punishing the rich to benefit the poor and pandering to the masses who can't or wouldn't think for their own future.

 

Those who studied history, will know how taxation came about. How taxes were initially levied on the rich to pay for certain infrastructures or wars, and the poor were conned into voting for it, as it would benefit them. However, as time went by, the taxes trickled down, and now, almost everyone is paying some form of tax.

 

My view is that if the prices of supercars get too expensive, the rich can always buy more of the cheaper cars, and take up more road space, or more COEs, which will eventually screw the system up again, by making the prices higher for the cheaper cars, once again, making it unaffordable for the poorer folks.

 

Nobody is entitled to a car. If you can afford it, by all means. But if you are a marginal owner, ask yourself again, if you cannot pay for the car (in real sense, and not by being just able to afford the installments), should you buy a car? If you are a marginal owner, with kids or old folks to take care of, aren't their expenses enough to trouble you already? Life without a car is more of a hassle at times, but buying a car to have the cachet of owning a car, or just to ease a little difficulties in life. Is that worth working the rest of your life to pay for those expensive assistance?

[Jamomatt]

Everyone wants ways to make it more difficult in getting a car for those who are richer. When people richer than you can't afford a luxury car, they will go for a b&b car. If they cannot afford cars, you cannot afford to take the bus liao. Tweak all you want, you need to realise that those who have more spending power than you will always be ahead of you in purchasing anything.