World without COE and ERP

[Yeshe]

  On 2/11/2013 at 1:30 PM, TatteredTorn said:

Yah lah true, but inflation aside, you have to agree that if you wanna keep those jobs that you mentioend strictly for locals only, it has the immediate and direct effect of increasing the burden on consumers. Right? If you're a boss, you wouldnt wanna absorb the increase in wages right? You will simply pass it on to the consumers.

 

and by the way, who do u think created this situation till date?

the public?

[Angcheek]

It sadden me how some still refused to see what g0v is doing or refused to understand the concern raised by the citizens. Keep twisting the word does not solve any problem

[TatteredTorn]

Ok I've had enough entertainemt. My relatives have left the house and it's time for me to have my dinner.

 

I still want to say it's easy to criticize but not easy to come up with a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone.

 

Everyone is still entitled to his/her own views! You have to take it graciously. I'm so ashamed of myself... I'll disappear from this thread.

[Simplecar]

  On 2/11/2013 at 1:39 PM, TatteredTorn said:

Ok I've had enough entertainemt. My relatives have left the house and it's time for me to have my dinner.

 

I still want to say it's easy to criticize but not easy to come up with a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone.

 

Everyone is still entitled to his/her own views! You have to take it graciously. I'm so ashamed of myself... I'll disappear from this thread.

This topic has moved from COE and ERP to this topic which incidentally is important. Come back when you are done. This topic is important, bashing aside.

[Longg8]

  On 2/11/2013 at 1:39 PM, TatteredTorn said:

Ok I've had enough entertainemt. My relatives have left the house and it's time for me to have my dinner.

 

I still want to say it's easy to criticize but not easy to come up with a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone.

 

Everyone is still entitled to his/her own views! You have to take it graciously. I'm so ashamed of myself... I'll disappear from this thread.

 

 

 

u r a joke...

please leave...

[Simplecar]

  On 2/11/2013 at 1:58 PM, Longg8 said:

 

u r a joke...

please leave...

Why don't you bring him to see your side of the argument?

[Pureness]

  On 2/11/2013 at 1:39 PM, TatteredTorn said:

I still want to say it's easy to criticize but not easy to come up with a one-size-fits-all solution for everyone.

 

what? you have so many problems and you expect a single solution to fix everything?

 

i can tell you a solution but are you going to accept it?

the solution is to stop importing foreigners. the more foreigners, the more the demand which will result in raising cost to keep up with supply

 

but you will say, no foreigners = higher cost

which i've already explained with facts to back up my claim that this is not true. i'm going to go further and explain to you that many businesses we have in sg right now are not supposed to exist in the 1st place.

 

traditionally businesses operate on competitive advantage. this is why you'll choose apple vs symbian or mercedes vs cherry.

in our local context because of cheap imported labour, we have businesses doing nothing but reselling cheap labour. companies who don't have any advantage other than price. their produce might not be up to standard but they are chosen because they are priced better against the well known brands

 

the minute we remove foreign labour, these companies lose their competiveness because they hold no advantage against well known brands. delifrance vs breadtalk, toughguard vs csII, sakae sushi, kopidiam vs macdonalds

without cheap foreign labour these companies would have closed shop a long time ago because they offer sub-par produce vs the competition.

 

yet these companies will continue to offer sub-par produce because of cheap labour, they have no imperative to improve or to go back to formula because this has been what they were doing all the while!

 

so we can continue to go down this path and allow such companies to grow by constantly importing foreigners to keep up the demand so that these sup-par suppliers can remain in business but this would mean 7m population in 2030, 10m in 2040, 15m in 2050 and on...

 

or we can plug the leak NOW and let these companies die their natural deaths or get them to reinvent their wheels and compete competitively to survive.

 

 

of course PAP supporters will not be able to understand my points because like sheep you only believe what PAP spoon feeds to you

[Pureness]

  On 2/11/2013 at 2:11 PM, Simplecar said:

Why don't you bring him to see your side of the argument?

 

i've spoken to a few PAP supporters on the 7m population debate.

these are the results i've gathered

 

- govt will reclaim enough land to support the addition to the population

- singaporeans will bear more babies to make up 7m

- 2030 is too long away and 7m will probably not happen

 

how do you make such a person see logic, when from the onset their thinking is already illogical?

 

when i tell them that i was very impressed with WP's speech, they tell me, LTK is a gangster and talks rubbish

when i ask, have you heard his speeches?

their reply is, no need to hear what a gangster has to say, he'll just talk rubbish anyway

 

[Simplecar]

  On 2/11/2013 at 2:18 PM, Pureness said:

i've spoken to a few PAP supporters on the 7m population debate.

these are the results i've gathered

 

- govt will reclaim enough land to support the addition to the population

- singaporeans will bear more babies to make up 7m

- 2030 is too long away and 7m will probably not happen

 

how do you make such a person see logic, when from the onset their thinking is already illogical?

 

when i tell them that i was very impressed with WP's speech, they tell me, LTK is a gangster and talks rubbish

when i ask, have you heard his speeches?

their reply is, no need to hear what a gangster has to say, he'll just talk rubbish anyway

There are quite a number of people I know who admire LTK for who he is, and what he represents. I have my views as well:

 

. Reclamation - that is assuming people would sell us their sand etc. The fundamental question is why do we need more people? Assuming we need, the new housing must be built near to the new train lines. Are they going to run to the reclaimed areas? I doubt.

 

. singaporeans bear more babies - when the environment is conducive, people will. Transplanted trees do not grow as well as those that came as seedling. If we put more seeds in a small place, the plants will not grow well. Perhaps the government can show us how.

 

. 2030? if they bring more instant trees, we will see 7m. I am not convinced yet how this would benefit the people as a whole.

[Longg8]

  On 2/11/2013 at 2:27 PM, Simplecar said:

There are quite a number of people I know who admire LTK for who he is, and what he represents. I have my views as well:

 

. Reclamation - that is assuming people would sell us their sand etc. The fundamental question is why do we need more people? Assuming we need, the new housing must be built near to the new train lines. Are they going to run to the reclaimed areas? I doubt.

 

. singaporeans bear more babies - when the environment is conducive, people will. Transplanted trees do not grow as well as those that came as seedling. If we put more seeds in a small place, the plants will not grow well. Perhaps the government can show us how.

 

. 2030? if they bring more instant trees, we will see 7m. I am not convinced yet how this would benefit the people as a whole.

 

 

i like that...

 

Transplanted trees do not grow as well as those that came as seedling.

 

deeper in meaning than it seems..

[Pureness]

  On 2/11/2013 at 2:27 PM, Simplecar said:

There are quite a number of people I know who admire LTK for who he is, and what he represents. I have my views as well:

 

. Reclamation - that is assuming people would sell us their sand etc. The fundamental question is why do we need more people? Assuming we need, the new housing must be built near to the new train lines. Are they going to run to the reclaimed areas? I doubt.

 

. singaporeans bear more babies - when the environment is conducive, people will. Transplanted trees do not grow as well as those that came as seedling. If we put more seeds in a small place, the plants will not grow well. Perhaps the government can show us how.

 

. 2030? if they bring more instant trees, we will see 7m. I am not convinced yet how this would benefit the people as a whole.

 

is reclamation the solution to accommodate more people?

are you sure that the govt will reclaim so much land to support the increase in the number of people?

to house 2m more people we will need to reclaim 40% more land than what we have now

this would effectively mean that we will need to make sentosa part of singapore. are you sure that is possible?

 

on babies, our growth rate now is in the low 1%, do meet 7m by 2030 it would mean each and every existing couple in singapore now will have to pop out around 1.5 children between now and 2030

how feasible is that when our growth rate has been declining for the past decade?

 

 

my point is that PAP supporters will never listen. they will construct a reality around them that whatever the govt says is right. this is why they always view alternative views as doom and gloom. they will take the most negative scenario possible as an alternative. to them its either this sucky solution or everybody dies. they can't see anything in between. they don't see that there are many paths to a single solution like most other people can

 

and until they can see that to drive at 2, you can do a 1x2 or 2/1 instead of 1 + 1 = 2,

they will never listen to anybody else because 1 + 1 = 2 anything else is 512 + 9384 = DIE!

[Benarsenal]

Everybody chill please. There's a way to discuss these without resorting to name-calling or rude language.

[Maseratigood]

  On 2/11/2013 at 12:49 PM, Zanter said:

Is that they way you debate? Your head something wrong..knock it a few more time and come back. The car dealers are the one chasing the coe prices to sell cars..You think its fine? Knock your head a few times more

Spot on.

 

sadly the miw is closing both eyes to this for obvious reason

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2013 by Maseratigood

[Simplecar]

  On 2/11/2013 at 2:45 PM, Pureness said:

is reclamation the solution to accommodate more people?

are you sure that the govt will reclaim so much land to support the increase in the number of people?

to house 2m more people we will need to reclaim 40% more land than what we have now

this would effectively mean that we will need to make sentosa part of singapore. are you sure that is possible?

 

on babies, our growth rate now is in the low 1%, do meet 7m by 2030 it would mean each and every existing couple in singapore now will have to pop out around 1.5 children between now and 2030

how feasible is that when our growth rate has been declining for the past decade?

 

 

my point is that PAP supporters will never listen. they will construct a reality around them that whatever the govt says is right. this is why they always view alternative views as doom and gloom. they will take the most negative scenario possible as an alternative. to them its either this sucky solution or everybody dies. they can't see anything in between. they don't see that there are many paths to a single solution like most other people can

 

and until they can see that to drive at 2, you can do a 1x2 or 2/1 instead of 1 + 1 = 2,

they will never listen to anybody else because 1 + 1 = 2 anything else is 512 + 9384 = DIE!

 

Reclamation is a very long term process. You need at least 10 years after reclamation for the land to be useful (compaction/consolidation) Add infrastructure and construction and you get another 5 years. Hmm. Where are the flats in the meantime?

 

Babies - if the ground is fertile, the plants will grow. So will weeds. The gardener/hired hands will need to do the necessary.

 

Lets watch- the people are speaking out and very passionately. The discussions online and offline are good. Let it continue.

 

[Orangepineapple]

  On 2/11/2013 at 2:15 PM, Pureness said:

what? you have so many problems and you expect a single solution to fix everything?

 

i can tell you a solution but are you going to accept it?

the solution is to stop importing foreigners. the more foreigners, the more the demand which will result in raising cost to keep up with supply

 

but you will say, no foreigners = higher cost

which i've already explained with facts to back up my claim that this is not true. i'm going to go further and explain to you that many businesses we have in sg right now are not supposed to exist in the 1st place.

 

traditionally businesses operate on competitive advantage. this is why you'll choose apple vs symbian or mercedes vs cherry.

in our local context because of cheap imported labour, we have businesses doing nothing but reselling cheap labour. companies who don't have any advantage other than price. their produce might not be up to standard but they are chosen because they are priced better against the well known brands

 

the minute we remove foreign labour, these companies lose their competiveness because they hold no advantage against well known brands. delifrance vs breadtalk, toughguard vs csII, sakae sushi, kopidiam vs macdonalds

without cheap foreign labour these companies would have closed shop a long time ago because they offer sub-par produce vs the competition.

 

yet these companies will continue to offer sub-par produce because of cheap labour, they have no imperative to improve or to go back to formula because this has been what they were doing all the while!

 

so we can continue to go down this path and allow such companies to grow by constantly importing foreigners to keep up the demand so that these sup-par suppliers can remain in business but this would mean 7m population in 2030, 10m in 2040, 15m in 2050 and on...

 

or we can plug the leak NOW and let these companies die their natural deaths or get them to reinvent their wheels and compete competitively to survive.

 

 

of course PAP supporters will not be able to understand my points because like sheep you only believe what PAP spoon feeds to you

 

I can anticipate the sort of (PAP-ish) reply you will get: if all these so called subpar companies close down, it would mean less jobs for singaporeans.

 

[Pureness]

  On 2/11/2013 at 5:25 PM, Orangepineapple said:

I can anticipate the sort of (PAP-ish) reply you will get: if all these so called subpar companies close down, it would mean less jobs for singaporeans.

 

you are right but such companies employ majority foreigners anyway

i don't know how they manage to get by the rules but there are times when i step into these places and i don't see a single singaporean staff around

 

also the end might justify the cause. if losing 1 or 2 jobs will allow us to send 10 foreigners home and cause a refocus on business process to make the business more competitive and more innovative, in the end such jobs will be re-created and in fact more jobs can be created and the standard of living will improve at the same time!

 

think about it, if apple had employed foreigners to make cheap knock-off china phones, would we have the iphone today?

but apple took the painful route to design and develop with a key focus on innovation and technology. today how big are apple now vs other companies like panasonic who if you might recall, once produced phones too.

 

 

so if we can see that there are many ways other than 1 + 1 to get 2, there are many possibilities that would result in the same final product and it is not all doom and gloom from an alternative route!

[Maseratigood]

  On 2/11/2013 at 6:01 PM, Pureness said:

you are right but such companies employ majority foreigners anyway

i don't know how they manage to get by the rules but there are times when i step into these places and i don't see a single singaporean staff around

 

also the end might justify the cause. if losing 1 or 2 jobs will allow us to send 10 foreigners home and cause a refocus on business process to make the business more competitive and more innovative, in the end such jobs will be re-created and in fact more jobs can be created and the standard of living will improve at the same time!

 

think about it, if apple had employed foreigners to make cheap knock-off china phones, would we have the iphone today?

but apple took the painful route to design and develop with a key focus on innovation and technology. today how big are apple now vs other companies like panasonic who if you might recall, once produced phones too.

 

 

so if we can see that there are many ways other than 1 + 1 to get 2, there are many possibilities that would result in the same final product and it is not all doom and gloom from an alternative route!

For discussion:- companies like Apple focus on high value work eg extensive R&D and oustanding/strategic product Differentiation to not only stay strong in but lead the market not just in turn over but in technical break through, they even create new markets with innovations.

 

Since sgp should not rely solely on imported cheap labor forever, Miw did said years ago we should target the upper ends of technologies in building our exports not unlike what Apple and the likes are doing. But it seems Miw merely pays lip service to this and 30 years on today, we are still far from that, whereas our fellow dragons 30 years ago eg Taiwan and south Korea are in that position today more or less. Just my observation.

Million dollar leaders, pls give us some clues why and how ?? (if you have any clue at all other than your million dollar pay cheques)

I could be wrong

Edited February 12, 2013 by Maseratigood

[Pureness]

  On 2/12/2013 at 1:57 AM, Maseratigood said:

For discussion:- companies like Apple focus on high value work eg extensive R&D and oustanding/strategic product Differentiation to not only stay strong in but lead the market not just in turn over but in technical break through, they even create new markets with innovations.

 

Since sgp should not rely solely on imported cheap labor forever, Miw did said years ago we should target the upper ends of technologies in building our exports not unlike what Apple and the likes are doing. But it seems Miw merely pays lip service to this and 30 years on today, we are still far from that, whereas our fellow dragons 30 years ago eg Taiwan and south Korea are in that position today more or less. Just my observation.

Million dollar leaders, pls give us some clues why and how ?? (if you have any clue at all other than your million dollar pay cheques)

I could be wrong

 

i can give you other companies that have succeeded thru hard work without having to rely on foreign labour

a singaporean company comes to mind - charles & keith

they have in-house designers and cater for a wide range of products and needs, their offerings are unique and value for money.

 

a carbon copy of c&k would be any shop along bugis street who employ foreign labour extensively. the owner would simply go to countries like vietnam or thailand and mass purchase items from there to resell here. 77th street is the largest of this group of stores which have no competitive advantage because they sell the same product as others, have no future viability other than reselling produce and relying on cheap foreign labour to man their stores and transport their goods.

 

c&k might have foreign labour among their ranks now but lets not forget they started in 2000s when such a business concept was not available. ie they had to rely on competitive advantage instead of FL

 

so once again, a lack of foreign labour does not equate to businesses closing shop unless they were never supposed to have existed in the very first place