[10 cars pileup @ ECP] This is why tailgating is discouraged

[Passion]

Unbelievable. People like you cause the chain collisions.

 

Wait till car in front of you applies full jam break at 90kph and the car behind slams into you at high speed.

 

See how your 'well-maintained' brakes help. Chain collisions happen because of over-confident drivers like you. Once you get whacked, see if you still keep 2 car length at 90kph.

Fortunately or unfortunately, I have not involved in any chain collision. Does it upset you when you read this? It is all about situation awareness and look ahead.

 

The car behind slam into me, that is his problem. My argument here is, 2 car length is my comfort level. The car behind who ram into me could be his vehicle not well maintained, did not maintain vigilance to car in front or keep less than his comfortable distance from the car in front.

[Passion]

Alot of cars on the road doesn't know their brake lights or brake switch is faulty. Therefore, chain collision could be caused by this reason. So even by keeping 5 car distance away, chain collision could be unavoidable given the speed and reaction time.

[Mockngbrd]

Big brake make car flip sial...

[Nainar]

I understand your theory. But that is still just theory. In real life, vehicle in front will still be moving while decelerating. Unless he hit a stationery object, else he wouldn't stop immediately. My argument here is the vehicle in front jam brake, and I jam upon seeing him jam his brake. I wouldn't have hit him if he don't hit a stationery object and stop.

 

Anyway, 2 Vehicle length in singapore context is still relatively common. Afterall, it still boils down to one comfort level. I'm fine with 2 car length during dry weather, clear vision of what is happening ahead of the car in front of me and around 6 to 7 car length during wet weather with almost can't see what is happening in front. Nobody keeps more than 5 car length away on expressway travelling at 90km/h except those p plate and auntie driver. It is a real nuisance if one drive with such a big car length.

 

It is not a question of 2 cars or 9 cars. It is just to bring down the myth that heavier cars stop faster, puny japanese cars take much longer to stop. To each it is their own comfort level. The rule of 9 cars is not written in stone and I don't follow that either. But I do use jurisprudence when deciding how much gap to leave, and I definitely leave 5-6 cars gap if the traffic is moving at 90 kmph. When speed comes down to 30-40 kmph, then it becomes 2 car gap or may be even less, but keep a constant vigil on rear view mirror to watch out for any cars coming faster than the traffic.

 

The reason I brought physics is to break down the myths that the stopping distance is fairly independent of the weight of the vehicle, and one has to be aware of these before applying their mind to find a comfort zone for themselves. According to published data the fatal accident rate /100,000 vehicles in Singapore is 30 while for some european countries like Germany, Sweden is just 7. Despite all the complaints about bad traffic in Malaysia, they are 36 fatal accidents/100,000 vehicles. These are all WHO published data.

 

 

So, before jumping the gun and flame me for saying this, some of these myths have to be taken down, with a sense of realism, on how safe we presume singapore roads to be. Knowing this makes one not to be complacent, and be vigilant. The purpose me putting all this information is towards that.

 

Nainar

[Hotshot85]

Fortunately or unfortunately, I have not involved in any chain collision. Does it upset you when you read this? It is all about situation awareness and look ahead.

 

The car behind slam into me, that is his problem. My argument here is, 2 car length is my comfort level. The car behind who ram into me could be his vehicle not well maintained, did not maintain vigilance to car in front or keep less than his comfortable distance from the car in front.

 

Agreed.

 

Your post sums up my sentiments on this issue.

[Hotshot85]

It is not a question of 2 cars or 9 cars. It is just to bring down the myth that heavier cars stop faster, puny japanese cars take much longer to stop. To each it is their own comfort level. The rule of 9 cars is not written in stone and I don't follow that either. But I do use jurisprudence when deciding how much gap to leave, and I definitely leave 5-6 cars gap if the traffic is moving at 90 kmph. When speed comes down to 30-40 kmph, then it becomes 2 car gap or may be even less, but keep a constant vigil on rear view mirror to watch out for any cars coming faster than the traffic.

 

The reason I brought physics is to break down the myths that the stopping distance is fairly independent of the weight of the vehicle, and one has to be aware of these before applying their mind to find a comfort zone for themselves. According to published data the fatal accident rate /100,000 vehicles in Singapore is 30 while for some european countries like Germany, Sweden is just 7. Despite all the complaints about bad traffic in Malaysia, they are 36 fatal accidents/100,000 vehicles. These are all WHO published data.

 

 

So, before jumping the gun and flame me for saying this, some of these myths have to be taken down, with a sense of realism, on how safe we presume singapore roads to be. Knowing this makes one not to be complacent, and be vigilant. The purpose me putting all this information is towards that.

 

Nainar

 

What? How'd that come about? The heavier an object is, the higher the inertia. Therefore, all things being equal, it'll take a heavier car longer to stop. AL THINGS BEING EQUAL. A heavy car with an inadequate brake will definitely take a longer distance to stop compared to the puny jappo car.

 

People, there's a reason why lighter cars are better during racing, cuz they can afford to start their braking later before entering a corner. Try that with a heavy car and see where you end up if you don't know your own braking zone and copy the lighter car's rhythm.

 

 

[Nainar]

What? How'd that come about? The heavier an object is, the higher the inertia. Therefore, all things being equal, it'll take a heavier car longer to stop. AL THINGS BEING EQUAL. A heavy car with an inadequate brake will definitely take a longer distance to stop compared to the puny jappo car.

 

People, there's a reason why lighter cars are better during racing, cuz they can afford to start their braking later before entering a corner. Try that with a heavy car and see where you end up if you don't know your own braking zone and copy the lighter car's rhythm.

 

Dude, you are mixing things. All things being equal, the a heavier car will mean, the braking force is also higher because of the coefficient of friction. A 2000 kg continental car on the same surface with a coefficient of friction of 0.7 in a dry weather can potentially have a braking force of 1400kgf. A same puny Japanese car weighing 1200 kg can potentially have 840 kgf. But as the weight of the japanese car is less, so is the energy to be dissipated, and so it needs less force to stop at the same distance. If the brake is inadequate it is a different problem altogether. So, all things being equal, the weight has no bearing on the stopping distance. If the brake power of the 1200 kg car is inadequate that it cannot generate 840kgf force, it will take longer to stop. No question about that.

 

If you look at an earlier post by one of the MCFer, the difference between Japanese cars stop at 115ft while some continental cars stop at 106 feet. The difference is marginal.

 

Racing car dynamics is totally different, the tyres are different. And here the discussion is purely about stopping and not dynamics while taking a corner. A whole new set of variables come into play while cornering and this discussion is about the srtaightline chain crash.

 

Nainar

[Crazybugger]

Fortunately or unfortunately, I have not involved in any chain collision. Does it upset you when you read this? It is all about situation awareness and look ahead.

 

The car behind slam into me, that is his problem. My argument here is, 2 car length is my comfort level. The car behind who ram into me could be his vehicle not well maintained, did not maintain vigilance to car in front or keep less than his comfortable distance from the car in front.

 

believe me when i tell you, if the car behind slam into you, it will also be your problem

 

sure the insurance will pay for the repair costs, even for the cost of a rental car while yours is being fixed. but you will still be inconvenienced for sure

 

and if you maintain your car in tip top condition, dun tell me you won't xin tia when your car gets dinged. somehow a repaired vehicle never quite feels the same as before

 

AND nothing can compensate for the years of pain from chronic injuries that can result from the whiplash or other impact related injuries

 

 

driving safely is not just about keeping your distance ... you should at all times give yourself a way out of potential incidents AND also leave a way out for other road users

 

i'm not a professional driver, but i dare say i have more than enough experience for you

[Nitro]

This thread got a lot of "experts" with different theories to support arguement. Very interesting to read. lol

[Zyklon]

It is not the tyre. It is the brake. If one alter the brake performance of a vehicle, and to a stronger brake, slamming on the brakes will cause car to flip if front brake is too strong. Don't believe, ask those biker or ride a bicycle with strong front brake. For rear brake that is too strong, it will cause vehicle to ski out of control. Wheels can lock at high speed, but once the shock reaches it limit, tyre hit the fender of the car, see whether it flips a not.

 

You are mixing things up. It is not brake force that will cause such problem, but BRAKE BIAS. Kinda like applying full brake on a bicycle, but only on the front. Motorcycles and bicycles have seperate front-rear brake control. Cars don't.

 

You just slam on the brake pedal and electronics will distribute/regulate the pressure. Even if you mod your car with bigger front brakes or even master cylinder, it will not flip over. Nose dive maybe, but flip over is difficult and might be worth a guinness world record attempt. FYI, there are many cases of family sedan running around with 6/8pot 380mm/405mm bbk on the front and stock brakes on the rear? Yup, stock rear brakes because of electronic parking brake.

[Nzy]

I understand your theory. But that is still just theory. In real life, vehicle in front will still be moving while decelerating. Unless he hit a stationery object, else he wouldn't stop immediately. My argument here is the vehicle in front jam brake, and I jam upon seeing him jam his brake. I wouldn't have hit him if he don't hit a stationery object and stop.

 

Anyway, 2 Vehicle length in singapore context is still relatively common. Afterall, it still boils down to one comfort level. I'm fine with 2 car length during dry weather, clear vision of what is happening ahead of the car in front of me and around 6 to 7 car length during wet weather with almost can't see what is happening in front. Nobody keeps more than 5 car length away on expressway travelling at 90km/h except those p plate and auntie driver. It is a real nuisance if one drive with such a big car length.

 

Obviously you don't understand at all. Of cuz the front vehicle is still moving while decelerating. You will still be moving while decelerating. As you say, when the front vehicle jam brake, you jam brake. There is a short time difference between when he start decelerating and when you start decelerating. If both cars have the same stopping distance, you'll travel further than him since you braked later. Without that gap, you'll hit the car infront.

 

Most people who haven't been in an accident where they rear end someone because they never keep the 2s gap won't understand. Most of the time the car infront jam brake and you'll still slow down in time even with a 2 car gap. But have you ever encountered a situation where you leave a 2 car gap at 90km/h and the guy infront did not jam brake to slow down but jam brake to come to a complete halt? Most people only encountered the first situation where the car jam brake but without stopping completely. This kind of chain accident usually occurs when the first car has to ebrake till he stops completely rather than to slow down to avoid something.

[Passion]

believe me when i tell you, if the car behind slam into you, it will also be your problem

 

sure the insurance will pay for the repair costs, even for the cost of a rental car while yours is being fixed. but you will still be inconvenienced for sure

 

and if you maintain your car in tip top condition, dun tell me you won't xin tia when your car gets dinged. somehow a repaired vehicle never quite feels the same as before

 

AND nothing can compensate for the years of pain from chronic injuries that can result from the whiplash or other impact related injuries

 

 

driving safely is not just about keeping your distance ... you should at all times give yourself a way out of potential incidents AND also leave a way out for other road users

 

i'm not a professional driver, but i dare say i have more than enough experience for you

Yes, I agreed it will be my problem when claiming insurance and repair. But you have to understand this, what you can control and what you cannot control. By following 2 car length, I'm comfortable I can control my vehicle and stop in time when vehicle in front jam brake. But this doesn't apply to vehicle behind and in front of me. Therefore, I do not want to take into consideration whether the car behind can stop in time or not. Also, if you are aware of what happen in front of the vehicle in front of you, you are likely that you are also fore warn yourself of the road condition ahead.

 

In short, behind whether can stop in time, not you or my say. No point you keep 10 car length and behind only keep 1 bonnet length. The moment you slow down and behind don't slow down, there will be collision. There comes the vigilance part of the driver and well maintain of the car. If the car behind keep 1 bonnet length and vigilance enough, he should be slowing down if he is vigilance of what is happening ahead of the car in front of him and if the car in front is not well-maintain, i.e brake light spoil, this is not within his control and the fault is poor maintainance of the vehicle in front and only partly his fault for not being vigilance.

[Nzy]

It is not the tyre. It is the brake. If one alter the brake performance of a vehicle, and to a stronger brake, slamming on the brakes will cause car to flip if front brake is too strong. Don't believe, ask those biker or ride a bicycle with strong front brake. For rear brake that is too strong, it will cause vehicle to ski out of control. Wheels can lock at high speed, but once the shock reaches it limit, tyre hit the fender of the car, see whether it flips a not.

 

We are talking about cars not bike. Do you even have a driving license? If the brakes on your car are too powerful and you have lousy tires, the worst that will happen is your tires will lockup if you have no ABS or not your ABS will be working really hard and increasing your braking distance. If you have really good tires then the worst that can happen is the same when you hit the limit of the tires.

 

Bikes are totally different....

[Passion]

Obviously you don't understand at all. Of cuz the front vehicle is still moving while decelerating. You will still be moving while decelerating. As you say, when the front vehicle jam brake, you jam brake. There is a short time difference between when he start decelerating and when you start decelerating. If both cars have the same stopping distance, you'll travel further than him since you braked later. Without that gap, you'll hit the car infront.

 

Most people who haven't been in an accident where they rear end someone because they never keep the 2s gap won't understand. Most of the time the car infront jam brake and you'll still slow down in time even with a 2 car gap. But have you ever encountered a situation where you leave a 2 car gap at 90km/h and the guy infront did not jam brake to slow down but jam brake to come to a complete halt? Most people only encountered the first situation where the car jam brake but without stopping completely. This kind of chain accident usually occurs when the first car has to ebrake till he stops completely rather than to slow down to avoid something.

That is where I have to correct you. Since you said both car have the same braking distance, the buffer is the 2 car gap. of course, some car have longer braking distance, that is why I said comes with experience. Can't be you know your car braking distance is long and you still follow my 2 car gap right?

 

Of course I've encounter a car jam brake to come to a complete stop. But before he did that, I'm already slowing down cause I'm seeing things ahead of him. If he is following the car in front closely, I wouldn't be following that closely cause I can't see the brake light of the vehicle in front of him. But if he is just keep a wide gap from the car in front, I'll just follow my 2 car length behind him. For your info, even with 2 car length gap, another car from lane 2 can still filter in without me tapping brake. So what is safe distance, what is not safe distance? It differ from person to person judgement.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Passion

[Passion]

We are talking about cars not bike. Do you even have a driving license? If the brakes on your car are too powerful and you have lousy tires, the worst that will happen is your tires will lockup if you have no ABS or not your ABS will be working really hard and increasing your braking distance. If you have really good tires then the worst that can happen is the same when you hit the limit of the tires.

 

Bikes are totally different....

 

Look at this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ce2LztwQRw

 

I'm not crapping you. I guess you should respect someone you don't know and don't doubt whether I drive or not. I'm driving even before I've this account on this forum.

Edited December 30, 2012 by Passion

[Nzy]

That is where I have to correct you. Since you said both car have the same braking distance, the buffer is the 2 car gap. of course, some car have longer braking distance, that is why I said comes with experience. Can be you know your car braking distance is long and you still follow my 2 car gap right?

 

Of course I've encounter a car jam brake to come to a complete stop. But before he did that, I'm already slowing down cause I'm seeing things ahead of him. If he is following the car in front closely, I wouldn't be following that closely cause I can't see the brake light of the vehicle in front of him. But if he is just keep a wide gap from the car in front, I'll just follow my 2 car length behind him. For your info, even with 2 car length gap, another car from lane 2 can still filter in without me tapping brake. So what is safe distance, what is not safe distance? It differ from person to person judgement.

 

Your 2 car gap is only 10m. Do you know how far you'll travel in 1s at 90km/h? Most drivers reaction time is about 1.5s when the car infront jam his brakes unexpectedly. At 90km/h, that 1.5s of reaction time means you travel an extra 37.5m compared to the car infront if you have the exact same braking distance as him. Even if you have really good brakes, you think your braking distance can be 37.5m less than the car infront? Your buffer is only enough if the car infront doesn't ebrake till he stops.

[Nzy]

Look at this.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Ce2LztwQRw

 

I'm not crapping you. I guess you should respect someone you don't know and don't doubt whether I drive or not. I'm driving even before I've this account on this forum.

 

Does that road look like anything you get in Singapore? Off road also different la. Look at the video carefully... he hit a bump causing the rear to go get airborne first. Then he applied the brakes hard and the front bumper got caught on something.... Anyway if you insist that a car can flip just by braking hard then no point trying to convince you. Then you'd better leave a bigger gap when you drive cuz you won't dare to brake hard in an emergency.

[Passion]

Your 2 car gap is only 10m. Do you know how far you'll travel in 1s at 90km/h? Most drivers reaction time is about 1.5s when the car infront jam his brakes unexpectedly. At 90km/h, that 1.5s of reaction time means you travel an extra 37.5m compared to the car infront if you have the exact same braking distance as him. Even if you have really good brakes, you think your braking distance can be 37.5m less than the car infront? Your buffer is only enough if the car infront doesn't ebrake till he stops.

Now you make another assumption, 1.5s for most driver. Don't make assumption, not all drivers take 1.5s to react. Furthermore, if you look far ahead, you should be making adjustment accordingly to the road condition. Well, I guess I don't want to argue with you till cow comes home. You can keep your 9 car length while I keep my 2 car length. So long I don't kiss anyone backside or cause inconvenience to anyone, I guess that is my social responsibility on the road. Even if you are Traffic Police, you have no right to tell me whether 2 car length is correct or 9 car length is correct because they tailed me with less than 1 car length before until I find a gap to give way to them.