SAF suspends smoke grenade training

[Othello]

  On 3/7/2016 at 7:27 AM, Lala81 said:

honestly, i don't think that the excessive smoke caused the death. The boy is just allergic to smoke grenades.

He may have suffered a severe attack even if there was only 1 smoke grenade.

 

But since TSR says two, then should have stopped at two.

 

 The COI opined that "if the TSR had been complied with, PTE Lee and his platoon mates would not have been subjected to smoke that was as dense as that during the incident, and... for as long as they were during the incident" and that "reduced exposure to smoke would have reduced the risks of any adverse reactions to the smoke."

 

MINDEF has relieved the exercise Chief Safety Officer, Captain Chia Thye Siong and the Platoon Commander who threw the smoke grenades, Captain Najib Hanuk Bin Muhamad Jalal, they have been relieved of their duties.  They have been re-deployed to assignments which do not oversee soldiers in training or operations. Following procedures and due process, the Chief Military Prosecutor will determine if these personnel should be subject to a General Court Martial (GCM), to establish their degree of culpability and if found guilty, mete out the appropriate punishment. Police investigations are also on-going to determine whether to prosecute the personnel involved in Civil Court.

 

hmmmm, so can sue or cannot ? Since police investigate, means have case to answer ? Police never read Statute ? 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Othello

[Kusje]

  On 3/7/2016 at 5:41 AM, RadX said:

 

Two officers involved in NSF death punished in accordance with military law: SAF

The State Coroner had found that Private Lee had died of an unforeseen acute allergic reaction to the smoke grenade fumes and the reaction was not "reasonably foreseeable", which was why no criminal charges were brought against the two SAF officers.

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SINGAPORE: The Singapore Armed Forces (SAF) on Monday (Mar 7) said that the platoon commander and the chief safety officer of the exercise that resulted in the death of full-time national serviceman Dominique Sarron Lee were punished in accordance with military law in 2013. 

Commander of Training and Doctrine Command (TRADOC) Brigadier General Chan Wing Kai said in a Facebook post that while the two officers escaped criminal charges, they were disciplined in 2013.

He noted that the Coroner's Inquiry (CI) found that PTE Lee had “died from acute allergic reaction to zinc chloride due to inhalation of zinc chloride fumes”. The coroner also found that this acute allergic reaction was “unlikely to have been predicted”.

Given that PTE Lee's acute allergic reaction to the smoke grenades thrown by the platoon commander was not reasonably foreseeable, no criminal charges were brought against both officers, he added.

"While the CI and COI (Committee of Inquiry) did not find that the two officers were directly responsible for PTE Lee's death, the two officers were summarily tried in 2013 for negligent performance of lawful order or duty, found guilty, and punished according to military law," BG Chan said. 

The COI, convened by the Armed Forces Council, found that the number of smoke grenades discharged and the distance between the smoke grenades were not in accordance with the limits and minimum distance specified in the Training Safety Regulations, he said. 

Smoke grenades which produce zinc chloride fumes have been in use by many militaries, including the SAF, since the 1970s. PTE Lee’s death directly attributable to zinc chloride inhalation is the first on the SAF’s records in over 30 years of use.

He reiterated that the SAF offers its deepest condolences to the family of the late PTE Lee. "We are deeply sorry for the untimely and tragic loss, and the anguish and distress brought to his family."

LEGAL RECOURSE AVAILABLE

The TRADOC Commander also sought to debunk the perception that SAF servicemen injured or killed cannot seek legal recourse under military rules. "This is incorrect," he said.

For instance, in 2004 four servicemen were charged in court for causing the death of another serviceman during combat survival training. Another example was the senior instructor who was charged and convicted of instigating a full-time NSman to commit a rash act and trying to pervert the course of justice in the incident where an overturned jeep resulted in the death of a full-time NSman.

"In both cases, the servicemen responsible were found guilty, and sentenced to imprisonment," he wrote.   

ASSISTANCE, SUPPORT OFFERED TO FAMILY

BG Chan also said before the most recent lawsuit, the family of the late PTE Lee had taken out a pre-action discovery application, which they subsequently withdrew. The court had awarded costs to the Ministry of Defence (MINDEF), but the ministry waived the legal costs, he said. 

The mother of PTE Lee had written on Facebook on Mar 3 that the Judicial Commissioner in charge of dismissing the suit against SAF and the two officers had ordered her to foot their legal costs. 

The TRADOC Commander added that MINDEF and SAF have been extending help to the family throughout this period, and remain committed to assisting and providing support to the family.  

"Since the incident, welfare grants have been disbursed, and an offer of compensation has been made to the family, based on the full extent allowed by the compensation legislation," he wrote.

"To respect privacy and maintain confidentiality, compensation amounts are not disclosed, but are generally two to four times that of amounts provided under the Work Injury Compensation Act for incidents arising from training and operations." 

He reiterated that SAF values the life of every soldier and recognises that we are responsible for the sons of Singapore placed under its charge. "We will uphold safety standards while ensuring that we build a strong National Service force able to defend Singapore."

 

 

 

 

So in summary:

 

1. 1 boy dead because of negligence from the SAF

2. 2 officers punished according to military law. Since the punishment was not specified, it must have just been a slap on the wrist. There is absolutely no other reason why they refuse to disclose the punishment. Again, they just recently disclosed the jail sentenance for some SAF druggie

3. Unstated amount of compensation given to the parents (Straits times reported this as being an estimated 60k!!!). They claim it is generally 2 to 4 times that of WICA. Min compensation for death under WICA is 69k.

 

[Kusje]

  On 3/7/2016 at 7:27 AM, Lala81 said:

honestly, i don't think that the excessive smoke caused the death. The boy is just allergic to smoke grenades.

He may have suffered a severe attack even if there was only 1 smoke grenade.

 

But since TSR says two, then should have stopped at two.

 

I don't think anyone can say for sure if he would have died if there were just 2 smoke grenades. But even if he has a severe attack with 1 or 2 smoke grenades, there is a possibility that he might not have died isn't there?

 

Just like some fellow who is allergic to nuts - surely there will be a difference in severity depending on whether he eats 1 nut or the entire packet?

[Kusje]

  On 3/7/2016 at 6:40 AM, RH1667 said:

As a father whose son will be enlisted this year, i am very sad to read about the conclusion from the court about this case. The letter from the mother make me emo too!

 

Where is the responsibility and accountability from the leaders?

One life is lost due to negligent , put aside the small amount of compensation, without proper accounting to the family, how do SAF expect to have closure ?

Just because law said " cannot be held responsibile " means case close ?

 

Why no MP proposing a change in law ?

 

The top are all ex-military men. No prizes for guessing which side they are on.

  On 3/7/2016 at 7:28 AM, Beregond said:

I think the mother went to C.S.J  for help,

dun think C.S.J can do any thing anw.

 

CSJ is the right person to go to if your objective is to bite onto the govt and refuse to let go of the issue.

[Nolicense]

  On 3/7/2016 at 5:41 AM, RadX said:

 

 

LEGAL RECOURSE AVAILABLE

 

For instance, in 2004 four servicemen were charged in court for causing the death of another serviceman during combat survival training. Another example was the senior instructor who was charged and convicted of instigating a full-time NSman to commit a rash act and trying to pervert the course of justice in the incident where an overturned jeep resulted in the death of a full-time NSman.

"In both cases, the servicemen responsible were found guilty, and sentenced to imprisonment," he wrote.   

 

 

 

The cases above are where criminal charges? or Civil charges? are filed by Mindef against the NSmen/Regular in addition to the military charges.

hmmmm....

ownself check ownself?

[Nolicense]

  On 3/7/2016 at 8:04 AM, Kusje said:

I don't think anyone can say for sure if he would have died if there were just 2 smoke grenades. But even if he has a severe attack with 1 or 2 smoke grenades, there is a possibility that he might not have died isn't there?

 

Just like some fellow who is allergic to nuts - surely there will be a difference in severity depending on whether he eats 1 nut or the entire packet?

actually is this the first time the deceased was exposed to the smoke grenades?

I would have thought it is not the first time. that is why the "more than 2" than the TSR is a consideration in the case.

[Lala81]

  On 3/7/2016 at 8:04 AM, Kusje said:

I don't think anyone can say for sure if he would have died if there were just 2 smoke grenades. But even if he has a severe attack with 1 or 2 smoke grenades, there is a possibility that he might not have died isn't there?

 

Just like some fellow who is allergic to nuts - surely there will be a difference in severity depending on whether he eats 1 nut or the entire packet?

 

If you have a severe attack, the medic doesn't have the epinehprine to held reduce the attack. So there's some delay there.

Nowadays SAF Western training area has a paramedic ambulance on standby. Maybe they have that.

[Lala81]

In response to the dose dependent reaction part, simply put, allergic reactions fall under 2 categories. One is dose dependent, one is not.

 

  Quote

 

Anaphylactoid reactions refer to an identical clinical pattern that is however non-IgE mediated. Certain allergens including drugs can trigger the mast cell cascade directly without involving IgE as the initial mediator. Anaphylactoid reactions therefore do not require prior sensitization as they are direct mass cell releasers and may produce anaphylaxis-like reactions in a dose-dependent manner. By contrast, classic anaphylaxis is not dose-dependant as the immune system is primed to recognize even minute amounts of the allergen and able to amplify the reaction via IgE mediation. For practical purposes, we can consider the clinical effects and management of anaphylaxis and anaphylactoid reactions to be identical.

 

[Lala81]

Have to see why the TSR was written this way. It could have been that the TSR was just written by someone who thought that 2 smokes are enough. More for practical training reasons rather than for a medical reason.

 

According to SAF, the number of such reactions are incredibly rare, my layman thought would be that it's likely to be the former.

 

But all this is just discussion. TSR breach is still a TSR breach.

[Kusje]

Thanks. I did not know that there are some allergic reactions which are not dose dependant.

 

With regards to why the TSR States to use a max of 2 smokes, the writer doesn't necessarily have to be aware of this like of allergy. Bearing in mind that the effects of the smoke grenades are already extremely irritating for a normal person, I would think that an excessive number of them could also cause harm.

[Lala81]

  On 3/7/2016 at 12:22 PM, Kusje said:

Thanks. I did not know that there are some allergic reactions which are not dose dependant.

 

With regards to why the TSR States to use a max of 2 smokes, the writer doesn't necessarily have to be aware of this like of allergy. Bearing in mind that the effects of the smoke grenades are already extremely irritating for a normal person, I would think that an excessive number of them could also cause harm.

 

Was this the case case where the officer threw the smoke into the building?

 

Usually two smokes cover quite a lot of the BUA already especially if the wind is weak.

When i did my FIBUA training, there was hardly any wind, the smoke really lasted a long time.

[Othello]

Punishment ? You decide ...................................... all the alternative media sites are stating that he was promoted. 

 

http://www.allsingaporestuff.com/article/saf-captain-chia-promoted-major-despite-negligence-dominique-lees-death

 

Chief Safety Officer

 

 

Date of Dominique Lee's death: 17 April 2012
Date of Captain Chia's Promotion: Est. July 2014
 

  On 3/7/2016 at 12:45 PM, Lala81 said:

Was this the case case where the officer threw the smoke into the building?

 

Usually two smokes cover quite a lot of the BUA already especially if the wind is weak.

When i did my FIBUA training, there was hardly any wind, the smoke really lasted a long time.

 

think the officer threw the smoke grenades outside of the building

 

 

He threw six grenades instead of two because there was no wind to create the smoke screen needed to mask the movement of the troops in the exercise area at Lim Chu Kang.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Othello

[Lala81]

  On 3/7/2016 at 12:53 PM, Othello said:

Punishment ? You decide ...................................... 

 

Chief Safety Officer

 

jeffery_chia_thye_siong_promoted_major_dominic_sarron_lee_negligence.jpg

 

Date of Dominique Lee's death: 17 April 2012

Date of Captain Chia's Promotion: Est. July 2014

 

 

think the officer threw the smoke grenades outside of the building

 

 

He threw six grenades instead of two because there was no wind to create the smoke screen needed to mask the movement of the troops in the exercise area at Lim Chu Kang.

 

doesn't look good siah. Though the 2 pictures not really strong resemblance.

 

Who threw the smokes? This is the PC leading the attack?

[Othello]

  On 3/7/2016 at 12:59 PM, Lala81 said:

doesn't look good siah. Though the 2 pictures not really strong resemblance.

 

Who threw the smokes? This is the PC leading the attack?

 

I think should be the same chap. Its the spectacles   This Capt/Maj Chia is the S.O. 

 

Its another Capt, who was the PC. 

 

http://news.asiaone.com/print/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20130423-417862.html

[Lala81]

  On 3/7/2016 at 1:04 PM, Othello said:

I think should be the same chap. Its the spectacles   This Capt/Maj Chia is the S.O. 

 

Its another Capt, who was the PC. 

 

http://news.asiaone.com/print/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20130423-417862.html

 

aiyah, we've all wore the bloody green helmet. If not enough smoke, throw more to cover the area. 

Honestly, out in the field, if give me the same situation, i also come out with the same answer.

[Kusje]

  On 3/7/2016 at 12:59 PM, Lala81 said:

doesn't look good siah. Though the 2 pictures not really strong resemblance.

 

Who threw the smokes? This is the PC leading the attack?

 

Hard to say if it is indeed the same guy.

 

All I know is that a Cpt Chia Thye Siong was promoted to MAJ in 2014.

 

http://www.mindef.gov.sg/content/dam/imindef_media_library/graphics/army/army_news/army_news_-_what_s/2014/July2014/APC.pdf

  On 3/7/2016 at 1:04 PM, Othello said:

I think should be the same chap. Its the spectacles   This Capt/Maj Chia is the S.O. 

 

Its another Capt, who was the PC. 

 

http://news.asiaone.com/print/News/Latest%2BNews/Singapore/Story/A1Story20130423-417862.html

 

How often do you get a Capt as a PC? Usually only SAFOS scholar....

[Othello]

  On 3/7/2016 at 1:11 PM, Lala81 said:

aiyah, we've all wore the bloody green helmet. If not enough smoke, throw more to cover the area. 

Honestly, out in the field, if give me the same situation, i also come out with the same answer.

 

as a peng kia, see smoke is the most song. the more the merrier ............... its reckless yes, but still a fact.   When outfield, simi sai TSR all throw into long kang. but you officer leh 

 

I once used a smoke grenade to smokeout the wasp nest in the sentry box. KNN still there i throw one more 

 

Anyway, you are right. The is no conclusive proof to ascertain that the smoke caused the asthmatic reaction but I guess the public (including) myself are more concerned about the "immunity" portion. 

[Kusje]

  On 3/7/2016 at 1:11 PM, Lala81 said:

aiyah, we've all wore the bloody green helmet. If not enough smoke, throw more to cover the area. 

Honestly, out in the field, if give me the same situation, i also come out with the same answer.

 

Then you are equally negligent lor.

 

How many times have you encountered a commander giving more than 20/30 push-ups under the guise of training? Did you know that every single training will require a training plan that is signed by the CO of the unit?