Electric cars

[inlinesix]

6 minutes ago, DOBIEMKZ said:

The Replacement Battery Costs for These Six Normal EVs Is Staggeringly High

https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/these-replacement-battery-costs-for-these-six-normal-evs-is-staggeringly-high?utm_campaign=trueanthem_AI&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=thedrive&fbclid=IwAR3qS4AdCq3NjkHyNOpsWDE8yrPYmGCae9BkViC1qA_N_7gIySEtqTJwUTM

The battery pack is almost the entire cost of the car in some cases. Some are more costly than the car itself.

BY CHRIS ROSALES    SEP 13, 2022 8:00 AM

Old EVs are cheap, and slightly used examples are getting more affordable. But after we saw a battery replacement horror story for a Chevrolet Volt owner last week, we looked into the cost of replacing six different contemporary EV batteries. The news isn’t pretty. 

The long-term costs of owning EVs are often misunderstood. Even if they’re powered by batteries, electric cars still need brakes, tires, and suspension. And because of the complex chemistry of lithium-ion batteries, these cars have a specific shelf life and degradation compared to internal combustion. Trouble is, engines get cheaper on a long enough timeline and generally can sit around indefinitely. Batteries are in constant decline.

A caveat of this list is the omission of Tesla. The reason is simply because there is no information on true parts cost from Tesla, with only used packs on eBay as a marker. We also looked into labor costs for replacing the batteries, on top of the astronomical battery costs. These change from state to state, but the quotes range from $1200 to $3000 depending on the car. The majority of the cost is parts. Let’s start with the humble (and good) Chevy Bolt.

Chevrolet Bolt

The Bolt is one of the most affordable and usable EVs anyone can buy. For around $20,000, a used pre-facelift bolt with over 200 miles of range makes for a great medium-distance car and has enough range to cover most daily commutes in the United States. It also happens to drive well, much better than most commuter cars.

The first Bolts were delivered in 2016, so they’re six years old at their oldest. Batteries have a generally agreed-upon lifespan of 10 years, depending on usage and charging habits, meaning that older Bolts are getting close to needing new battery packs. 

Chevrolet decided to split the Bolt battery pack into 10 individual battery stacks in a common housing, meaning bad packs can be swapped for less money than an entire pack. However, this won’t be a great solution for worn out batteries. If one pack goes bad, the rest aren’t far behind it. Each pack costs $990.81, making a total parts cost for a totally fresh battery $9,908 before tax and labor.

Hyundai Ioniq Electric

Hot on the heels of the Bolt in terms of age and price, the original Hyundai Ioniq EV is a more compromised choice. With half the range of the Bolt, this is a city EV. It also is no great bargain at the same $20,000 of the Bolt. Still, it’s an older used option for anyone seeking an EV.

The first model of Ioniq Electric was delivered in 2017, so they are five years old at their oldest. These batteries are at least at their half lives, and with their relatively small capacity, range will drop substantially. 

Hyundai deployed a single integrated pack strategy for the Ioniq EV, meaning the whole pack has to be replaced if there is a fault. The cost is $17,845, almost as much as the car itself.

BMW i3

The BMW i3 is actually the second-oldest on the list, as production started in 2013 when BMW was getting its groundbreaking i Series off the ground. The range and price is similar to the Ioniq EV but is more luxury- and tech-focused than the Hyundai. Its construction with a carbon fiber tub makes it unique for any car, not just an EV, and it has one of the nicest cabins a consumer can find.

With these cars being almost 10 years old, batteries on older models might be very degraded. BMW split the pack into eight battery modules, each retailing for $3,054 for a total of $24,432 in battery cost. This far outstrips the value of the car if a new battery pack is used to fix an old i3.

Nissan Leaf

The Nissan Leaf, one of the oldest mass-market EVs, started production in 2010 for the 2011 model year. There were other older EVs that were more niche, but the Leaf even beat Tesla to market. Though it might not have the cultural impact of the Tesla Model S, it’s the cheapest EV on the list, available for less than $10,000 for early examples. Unfortunately, it suffers from severe battery degradation in its age.

Finding a new Leaf battery is difficult, but the part number 295B0-3NF0B comes back to a list price of $10,000. According to Antelope Valley Nissan, the labor cost is $1,320 and the battery cost is often below list price.

Volkswagen e-Golf

The e-Golf occupies a similar space to the Ioniq EV and Bolt as a compact city car, though it is down on range compared to the Bolt. It’s also reasonably old, introduced in 2015 and facelifted in 2018 with more range. The earliest e-Golfs go for $15,000 to $20,000, which feels steep for the EPA-estimated 83 miles of range. 

This car has the most expensive battery on our list at $27,000 as listed by VW. Though, that price might be dubious, as the much newer and ground-up Volkswagen ID.4’s battery is listed at the exact same $27,000. It’s possible that dealers get discounts on the price or that Volkswagen has no availability, thereby setting a placeholder price. Either way, it isn’t cheap to replace a battery in either EV Volkswagen.

 

Ford Mustang Mach-E

For the last entry, a newer EV is an interesting study in the future cost of owning a car with a large battery capacity. The Mustang Mach-E is an interesting mass-market car with very usable range, great interior space, and some performance. 

Ford lists the most expensive Mach-E battery at $25,319 and the cheapest, low-range battery at $17,588. The labor cost to replace the complete pack is $1,200, and it can only be replaced as one piece.

The Mach-E has only just hit the market, so it will be a long time before any Mach-Es need battery replacements due to degradation. Thus far, it doesn’t look cheap.

The Upside

Though these numbers look bleak, the chance of batteries continually getting cheaper as new technologies emerge is fairly high. The real risk is old batteries becoming obsolete, going out of production, and leaving cars without replacement parts. This happened with the early nickel-metal hydride EVs and could happen to lithium-ion EVs as solid-state batteries approach viability. 

But, there should be a healthy supply of used batteries for years to come. Also, the EV aftermarket hasn’t quite happened yet but as demand for EVs grows, reconditioned or aftermarket battery packs could be available in a few short years. 

There is no getting around the high cost of batteries. At least for now. 10 years from now, there will be a reckoning on EV longevity. It will be interesting to see where used EVs land compared to ICE cars.

Other than Carbon82, most people will not face this problem.

Most battery can take up to 1,000 cycle of charging/discharging.

[Vratenza]

12 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

Other than Carbon82, most people will not face this problem.

Most battery can take up to 1,000 cycle of charging/discharging.

Now instead of Odometer tampering....the ah beng workshops have to think of how to tamper with charging cycles count 

[inlinesix]

European Swappable Batteries Consortium grows to 21 members, standardised e-bike batteries coming
https://paultan.org/2022/09/15/european-swappable-batteries-consortium-grows-to-21-members-standardised-e-bike-batteries-coming/

[DOBIEMKZ]

Looks like this Polestar EV's battery about to die, or already dead.

 

[Didu]

1 hour ago, DOBIEMKZ said:

Looks like this Polestar EV's battery about to die, or already dead.

 

Good thing about Polestar EV is, even when it fails to move, the hazard lights are still working.  

[inlinesix]

5 minutes ago, Didu said:

Good thing about Polestar EV is, even when it fails to move, the hazard lights are still working.  

All EV has 12v battery.

Blicker is powered by 12v battery 

[Didu]

On 9/29/2022 at 9:01 PM, inlinesix said:

All EV has 12v battery.

Blicker is powered by 12v battery 

I was only joking bro. 😁 You're right about the lights are on 12V battery. There's even an article in today's paper.

Torque Shop: Why is there a 12v battery in an EV?

If electric vehicles (EVs) use high-voltage lithium-ion batteries, why do they still carry a 12-volt lead acid battery?

The various electrically powered components in a conventional vehicle – including lights, wipers, power windows and electronic control units – operate on a 12-volt direct current supplied by a lead acid battery.

This is the traditional electrical network that has been in production for decades and has proven to be safe and reliable, and with a battery that is easily replaceable and inexpensive.

Component manufacturers base all their designs on the 12-volt system. Hence, all vehicles, including EVs, are fitted with a 12-volt system and battery. On cars with internal combustion engines, the lead acid battery is charged by an alternator when the engine is running. In an EV, it is charged via a DC-DC converter by the vehicle’s high-voltage battery.

The primary function of the high-voltage battery is to power the motors and the air-conditioning compressor. All other electrical equipment and control systems rely on the lead acid battery.

Although it is possible to step down the high-voltage battery output to 12 volts for these functions, the current technology and design codes specify that the networks be totally separate. This is to ensure maximum safety and safe isolation of the high-voltage system when the vehicle is shut down during servicing or maintenance and in the event of a road accident. 

Whenever an EV is switched on, it is the 12-volt system that energises a contactor – essentially a switch which transmits high electrical power – to allow high-voltage supply to be transmitted to the motors. This is a crucial feature of all EVs. Whenever the control system signals the high-voltage system to be disconnected, it is the 12-volt switch gear that activates the isolation.

This will cause the EV drivetrain to be immobilised. But the car’s power steering, brakes, power windows and central locking will continue to operate, thanks to the independent 12-volt battery and its low-voltage network.

https://www.straitstimes.com/life/motoring/torque-shop-why-is-there-a-12v-battery-in-an-ev

[DOBIEMKZ]

On 9/29/2022 at 8:55 PM, Didu said:

Good thing about Polestar EV is, even when it fails to move, the hazard lights are still working.  

It could also be that the motor was spoilt...

[DOBIEMKZ]

Tesla is now building Model 3 and Model Y vehicles without ultrasonic sensors.

https://techcrunch.com/2022/10/04/tesla-is-now-building-model-3-and-model-y-vehicles-without-ultrasonic-sensors/?tpcc=tcplusfacebook&fbclid=IwAR1jNRozhvOlmJfh5LLTDwe3V8iHmbcihz1B4yKBT_rRjM9zsBhX0ZY7yuw

kirsten korosec / 5:23 AM GMT+8•October 5, 2022

Image Credits: Tesla

Tesla is removing ultrasonic sensors from Model 3 and Model Y vehicles, the next step in CEO Elon Musk’s plan to only use cameras and software to support its advanced driver assistance system and other active safety features.

Starting this month, all Model 3 and Model Y vehicles built for North America, Europe, the Middle East and Taiwan will no longer include the 12 ultrasonic sensors typically found on the front and rear bumpers of its vehicles. Ultrasonic sensors, which measure distance by using ultrasonic waves, are generally used as proximity sensors to support anti-collision safety systems, particularly in low-speed applications like parking.

Tesla announced the changes about 17 months after it said it would remove radar from its vehicles.

The decision to eschew radar or ultrasonics is a contrarian approach to the rest of the industry, which is adding, not removing, sensors from its vehicles to support ADAS.

Automakers typically use a combination of radar and cameras — and now even lidar — to provide the sensing required to deliver ADAS features like adaptive cruise control, which matches the speed of a car to surrounding traffic, as well as lane keeping and automatic lane changes.

Tesla began its so-called Tesla Vision plan in 2021, when it removed radar from Model 3 and Model Y vehicles made in North America, followed by Model S and Model X in 2022. Earlier this year, Tesla expanded that to include Model Y and Model 3 vehicles sent to customers in Europe and the Middle East.

Tesla said the removal of ultrasonic sensors (or USS) will begin with Model 3 and Model Y vehicles. In 2023, it will include Model S and Model X vehicles.

[inlinesix]

 

[Voodooman]

On 9/14/2022 at 5:32 PM, DOBIEMKZ said:

The Replacement Battery Costs for These Six Normal EVs Is Staggeringly High

https://www.thedrive.com/guides-and-gear/these-replacement-battery-costs-for-these-six-normal-evs-is-staggeringly-high?utm_campaign=trueanthem_AI&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_term=thedrive&fbclid=IwAR3qS4AdCq3NjkHyNOpsWDE8yrPYmGCae9BkViC1qA_N_7gIySEtqTJwUTM

The battery pack is almost the entire cost of the car in some cases. Some are more costly than the car itself.

BY CHRIS ROSALES    SEP 13, 2022 8:00 AM

Old EVs are cheap, and slightly used examples are getting more affordable. But after we saw a battery replacement horror story for a Chevrolet Volt owner last week, we looked into the cost of replacing six different contemporary EV batteries. The news isn’t pretty. 

The long-term costs of owning EVs are often misunderstood. Even if they’re powered by batteries, electric cars still need brakes, tires, and suspension. And because of the complex chemistry of lithium-ion batteries, these cars have a specific shelf life and degradation compared to internal combustion. Trouble is, engines get cheaper on a long enough timeline and generally can sit around indefinitely. Batteries are in constant decline.

A caveat of this list is the omission of Tesla. The reason is simply because there is no information on true parts cost from Tesla, with only used packs on eBay as a marker. We also looked into labor costs for replacing the batteries, on top of the astronomical battery costs. These change from state to state, but the quotes range from $1200 to $3000 depending on the car. The majority of the cost is parts. Let’s start with the humble (and good) Chevy Bolt.

Chevrolet Bolt

The Bolt is one of the most affordable and usable EVs anyone can buy. For around $20,000, a used pre-facelift bolt with over 200 miles of range makes for a great medium-distance car and has enough range to cover most daily commutes in the United States. It also happens to drive well, much better than most commuter cars.

The first Bolts were delivered in 2016, so they’re six years old at their oldest. Batteries have a generally agreed-upon lifespan of 10 years, depending on usage and charging habits, meaning that older Bolts are getting close to needing new battery packs. 

Chevrolet decided to split the Bolt battery pack into 10 individual battery stacks in a common housing, meaning bad packs can be swapped for less money than an entire pack. However, this won’t be a great solution for worn out batteries. If one pack goes bad, the rest aren’t far behind it. Each pack costs $990.81, making a total parts cost for a totally fresh battery $9,908 before tax and labor.

Hyundai Ioniq Electric

Hot on the heels of the Bolt in terms of age and price, the original Hyundai Ioniq EV is a more compromised choice. With half the range of the Bolt, this is a city EV. It also is no great bargain at the same $20,000 of the Bolt. Still, it’s an older used option for anyone seeking an EV.

The first model of Ioniq Electric was delivered in 2017, so they are five years old at their oldest. These batteries are at least at their half lives, and with their relatively small capacity, range will drop substantially. 

Hyundai deployed a single integrated pack strategy for the Ioniq EV, meaning the whole pack has to be replaced if there is a fault. The cost is $17,845, almost as much as the car itself.

BMW i3

The BMW i3 is actually the second-oldest on the list, as production started in 2013 when BMW was getting its groundbreaking i Series off the ground. The range and price is similar to the Ioniq EV but is more luxury- and tech-focused than the Hyundai. Its construction with a carbon fiber tub makes it unique for any car, not just an EV, and it has one of the nicest cabins a consumer can find.

With these cars being almost 10 years old, batteries on older models might be very degraded. BMW split the pack into eight battery modules, each retailing for $3,054 for a total of $24,432 in battery cost. This far outstrips the value of the car if a new battery pack is used to fix an old i3.

Nissan Leaf

The Nissan Leaf, one of the oldest mass-market EVs, started production in 2010 for the 2011 model year. There were other older EVs that were more niche, but the Leaf even beat Tesla to market. Though it might not have the cultural impact of the Tesla Model S, it’s the cheapest EV on the list, available for less than $10,000 for early examples. Unfortunately, it suffers from severe battery degradation in its age.

Finding a new Leaf battery is difficult, but the part number 295B0-3NF0B comes back to a list price of $10,000. According to Antelope Valley Nissan, the labor cost is $1,320 and the battery cost is often below list price.

Volkswagen e-Golf

The e-Golf occupies a similar space to the Ioniq EV and Bolt as a compact city car, though it is down on range compared to the Bolt. It’s also reasonably old, introduced in 2015 and facelifted in 2018 with more range. The earliest e-Golfs go for $15,000 to $20,000, which feels steep for the EPA-estimated 83 miles of range. 

This car has the most expensive battery on our list at $27,000 as listed by VW. Though, that price might be dubious, as the much newer and ground-up Volkswagen ID.4’s battery is listed at the exact same $27,000. It’s possible that dealers get discounts on the price or that Volkswagen has no availability, thereby setting a placeholder price. Either way, it isn’t cheap to replace a battery in either EV Volkswagen.

 

Ford Mustang Mach-E

For the last entry, a newer EV is an interesting study in the future cost of owning a car with a large battery capacity. The Mustang Mach-E is an interesting mass-market car with very usable range, great interior space, and some performance. 

Ford lists the most expensive Mach-E battery at $25,319 and the cheapest, low-range battery at $17,588. The labor cost to replace the complete pack is $1,200, and it can only be replaced as one piece.

The Mach-E has only just hit the market, so it will be a long time before any Mach-Es need battery replacements due to degradation. Thus far, it doesn’t look cheap.

The Upside

Though these numbers look bleak, the chance of batteries continually getting cheaper as new technologies emerge is fairly high. The real risk is old batteries becoming obsolete, going out of production, and leaving cars without replacement parts. This happened with the early nickel-metal hydride EVs and could happen to lithium-ion EVs as solid-state batteries approach viability. 

But, there should be a healthy supply of used batteries for years to come. Also, the EV aftermarket hasn’t quite happened yet but as demand for EVs grows, reconditioned or aftermarket battery packs could be available in a few short years. 

There is no getting around the high cost of batteries. At least for now. 10 years from now, there will be a reckoning on EV longevity. It will be interesting to see where used EVs land compared to ICE cars.

Without ARF, it will be cheaper than the car in Singapore.  But still not going to be cheap. With 10 years lifespan and our largely urban drive, EV is quite suitable for SG.

[zipping]

https://www.asiaone.com/lifestyle/4000km-1-ev-zero-arguments-thailand-singapore-and-back

4000km, 1 EV, zero arguments: From Thailand to Singapore and back

[inlinesix]

Recently, I found out that EV can be charged with 32A industrial plug.

Need to find EV charging wire that use that plug.

[t0y0ta]

On 10/16/2022 at 4:57 PM, zipping said:

https://www.asiaone.com/lifestyle/4000km-1-ev-zero-arguments-thailand-singapore-and-back

4000km, 1 EV, zero arguments: From Thailand to Singapore and back

easy when no one is competing for the limited 1 or 2 charging points with you at each stop. Wait till there are thousands of EVs having same idea running around.

[inlinesix]

3 minutes ago, t0y0ta said:

easy when no one is competing for the limited 1 or 2 charging points with you at each stop. Wait till there are thousands of EVs having same idea running around.

MY is pushing for more charging stations.

Meanwhile, most ppl are priced out of EV.

Edited October 28, 2022 by inlinesix

[Arogab]

I had one experience when I was going to the Suzhou Airport and the guy tells me he need 20 mins to charge after we moved off in the car. 

Back then, I was like "WTF, I am going to the airport, and you need to charge?"

Looked at my watch and I decided to cool it, let him charge and took the 20 mins buy a drink for myself and the driver as I got 2 over hours ahead for arrival when I got into the car. I still end up arriving 1:45 mins before flight. 

But this is the real pain for EV. And that is why my boss acquired an intelligence charging company. Only when there is a quick charge, then I will swift towards changing EV. For now Hybrid 

[inlinesix]

24 minutes ago, Arogab said:

I had one experience when I was going to the Suzhou Airport and the guy tells me he need 20 mins to charge after we moved off in the car. 

Back then, I was like "WTF, I am going to the airport, and you need to charge?"

Looked at my watch and I decided to cool it, let him charge and took the 20 mins buy a drink for myself and the driver as I got 2 over hours ahead for arrival when I got into the car. I still end up arriving 1:45 mins before flight. 

But this is the real pain for EV. And that is why my boss acquired an intelligence charging company. Only when there is a quick charge, then I will swift towards changing EV. For now Hybrid 

Both car and EV charger must match on then got 200kw charger.

The driver should have charged the car before picking customer.

For usage on this island, no issue la.

[Arogab]

7 minutes ago, inlinesix said:

Both car and EV charger must match on then got 200kw charger.

The driver should have charged the car before picking customer.

For usage on this island, no issue la.

I only bring up as an example. Then and again, if like me park a long time. I also donno. With COE going like this. If my car ten years (5 years later). I might as well give it up. Anyway, I still got car here and China to enjoy. Haha