Anti FT policy: Middle Income stagnation

[Tigerwoods]

  On 5/3/2012 at 9:11 AM, Itarc said:

Frankly im pretty sick of the same tune sang by the same men. How does productivity increase wage rise? How does one individual be more 'productive'? It must be the efforts of businesses to increase productivity. For low-middle wage earners, time = $. Work 8 hrs, earn 8 hrs. To be more productive, work 12 hours daily? 24 hours? What then?

 

Warren buffet once mentioned that, today's CEOs and bankers earn about 100 times more than 1970s. Are they 100 times more productive? I have a colleague from malaysia, he earns the same as me but in RM. I must be 100% more productive than him? But his living expense is also 50% or less than mine!

 

Wages has many many influencing factors, and productivity seems to be the least of them. Are our ministers 5 times as productive as the president of USA? Is it fair to say that, to increase wage we must first increase productivity?

 

I remembered there was a wayang documentary talking about our govt scheme of retraining low skills workers to help to get higher wage. There is this example of a cleaner who earns like $800 per month, and after learning how to use the clean machine he gets about $1000 per month. And some other driver who manages to drive a bigger class vehicle and gets like a few hundred increment. But the true picture is, these guys are still in the lower wage. They still have problems in financing their family. They are thrown from one low wage job to another. Their slightly higher wage still cannot catchup with the rate of inflation, and its not substainable. They can only be retrain so many times to get a higher pay. The problems are much much bigger than productivity!

 

Phew...just got to get this off my chest.

Garment says if you.want more salary do more work. Write so long for what?

 

[RealSabbie]

  On 5/3/2012 at 10:56 AM, Tigerwoods said:

Garment says if you.want more salary do more work. Write so long for what?

I secretly wish for Tigerwoods to invest my 400k and turn it into 4 million, then I happy like a bird leow!

[Vegas]

Cleaning contracts always get undercut by competiton => Govt Agencies go for the lowest bid => low cost high productivity, Sinkies dun wanna do the job? FT can do...

Blame sinkies dun wana take job... So sinkie need to buy 200k (Min) flat, contribute to cpf (20%), left how much to feed famili? FT, housing provide by agent, send $500 back home, bigger than aeroplane wheel!

 

HDB earn so much from 'market subsidary" not enuf, change to LED Light, save power right? town council pay less for power good right? GOOD!

tender issue=> HDB not paying for the lights. vendors will pay upfront, install, and collect back from monthly / quarterly pwer savings. lagi better=> vendor need to rebate town council on specific % of power savings... So $$$ all go to HDB, town councils, sinkieporeans who work for the vendors, installers stuck with lower n lower wages => need to install FOC mah + warrenty => HDB / Town Council smart, earn $$, sinkieporeans chuiz! not happy? quit, replace by FT...

 

So increased productivity => wage rises??

Listened to enuf BS from them for long enuf...

 

[Freestylers09]

  On 5/3/2012 at 2:04 PM, Vegas said:

Cleaning contracts always get undercut by competiton => Govt Agencies go for the lowest bid => low cost high productivity, Sinkies dun wanna do the job? FT can do...

Blame sinkies dun wana take job... So sinkie need to buy 200k (Min) flat, contribute to cpf (20%), left how much to feed famili? FT, housing provide by agent, send $500 back home, bigger than aeroplane wheel!

 

HDB earn so much from 'market subsidary" not enuf, change to LED Light, save power right? town council pay less for power good right? GOOD!

tender issue=> HDB not paying for the lights. vendors will pay upfront, install, and collect back from monthly / quarterly pwer savings. lagi better=> vendor need to rebate town council on specific % of power savings... So $$$ all go to HDB, town councils, sinkieporeans who work for the vendors, installers stuck with lower n lower wages => need to install FOC mah + warrenty => HDB / Town Council smart, earn $$, sinkieporeans chuiz! not happy? quit, replace by FT...

 

So increased productivity => wage rises??

Listened to enuf BS from them for long enuf...

 

 

thats FW la

 

Cleaning only PRC can do beside Malaysian

 

End of day not only Gahment agencies bid lower, is all companies want..which boss dont want pay cleaners make them happier one? give them less headache

 

infact wrong, hiring a FW in cleaning is even higher than a Singaporean..but FW can work longer time..this is the fact..that is why cleaning company rather hire FW despite paying slightly higher

 

cannot blame, this is market practice..if you run a company, will u choose highest bid? if so,let me first to know ok?

[Wind30]

  On 5/2/2012 at 6:00 PM, Wishcumstrue said:

Which I think PM Lee was forced to respond as he may had felt being challenged by another famous local economist just last month who warned Singapore's growing income inequality is approaching "dangerous levels" with over-dependence on cheap foreign labour.

 

When the government responded coolly to Prof Lim Chong Yah's proposal for Wage Reform (See Prof Lim's wage proposal won't work, says PM Lee, I fear that they have fallen into a comfort-zone track towards this obvious Disaster.

 

When Prof Lim published his findings and recommendation to the Gov on "DOES SINGAPORE NEED ECONOMIC RESTRUCTURING II OR ANOTHER

[Wishcumstrue]

  On 5/3/2012 at 2:20 PM, Wind30 said:

Frankly I don't understand all these b-------t about raising minimum wage and income of the lowest bracket.

 

Common, all you are going to raise is the living standards of the FT labourers. And in the end who is going to pay for their pay increases??? You think money drop out form the sky? The rising cost will come back at hit us.

 

You have just missed the forest for the trees.

 

We are not talking about raising FT pay, nor are we talking about increasing local pay blindly.

 

We are talking about inflation and growing income gap in local job scene when the FT/FW factor plays a major factor.

 

When companies are given the greenlight by the gov to hire whoever is cheaper for what ever reason in the name of profit...something must give in the future which everyone will paid back ultimately.

 

A wage reform is the way forward to break Singapore's addiction to cheap labour import and continued failure to ensure socially responsible distributed wealth creation.

 

Until 2016, I see current Government prefer to sit on this key concern by resisting such reform.

[Icedbs]

  On 5/3/2012 at 9:25 AM, Itarc said:

And yes i blame the influx of FTs for our situation. Stop tell us that singapore will sink if there are no FTs to support us. If that is true we will sink anyway when we reach 6.5 million. What then? If there are no other way to increase our GDP then our economy is doomed sooner or later.

 

Oh yes when the wages is depressed enough, the inflation continues to climb... and then we are blame for not having enough children.

 

This is just like your wife telling you to work more jobs and earn more money(increase productivity) so that she can buy more expensive stuff(inflation), or else she find other men(FTs). and Even if you did, spending 24 hrs working daily, she complains why u never spend time with her(having more babies).

 

Enough is enough woman!!

 

But don't forget also that it is the foreigners who have given you so much paper gain on your property.

 

You know why Spreans are cash rich? Because many sold away their flats, cash out hundred of thousands, then buy again with their parents name and all that, make money sell again, and repeat the same whole darn thing. Spreoans can just keep repeating this buy high and sell higher feat until the bubble burst. But even when it burst, these Spreans had already make hundred of thousand before the bubble.

 

Who is fueling all these gains? The FTs of course in pushing up property prices.

 

So you can love them or hate them, but don't forget that these foreigners also made Sporeans rich with their foreign money.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Happily1986]

  On 5/3/2012 at 5:28 PM, Icedbs said:

But don't forget also that it is the foreigners who have given you so much paper gain on your property.

 

You know why Spreans are cash rich? Because many sold away their flats, cash out hundred of thousands, then buy again with their parents name and all that, make money sell again, and repeat the same whole darn thing. Spreoans can just keep repeating this buy high and sell higher feat until the bubble burst. But even when it burst, these Spreans had already make hundred of thousand before the bubble.

 

Who is fueling all these gains? The FTs of course in pushing up property prices.

 

So you can love them or hate them, but don't forget that these foreigners also made Sporeans rich with their foreign money.

 

Yes i agree that foreign speculation is the key reason behind surging property valuation(s). However i do not quite agree with your statement that Singaporeans are rich because of foreign money.

 

I do not believe that capital is a zero sum game. All those eye popping paper gains were not accompanied with an equivalent and corresponding pouring in of foreign monies in the housing market. Market sentiments dictates capital creation. if the bullish market so desire that the valuation is fair game then it will be. The foreigners help drive the demand yes but to say that the cashouts have been financed solely by foreign capital is quite a misnomer.

 

I am simply taking issue with the way you phrase it. it connotes a different understanding.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Happily1986

[Seanboi]

  On 5/2/2012 at 1:45 PM, Without_a_car said:

In 1973,

 

a 4 room flat (92 sq m) is $15.5K

a plate of chicken rice is 70 cents.

a fresh poly grad pay is $400 pm

a fresh univeristy graduate pay $800 pm

a minister pay is 3-4k pm, about 40K per year.

 

In 2012

 

same flat is $300K. (19x)

chicken rice $3.00 (4x)

salary of fresh poly grad $1.4 to $1.8K pm (4.5x)

salary of fresh university graduate $2800-$3600 (4.5X) <- Only those from local unis.

minister pay say $1 m per year (25x)

 

Rightfully minister pay should be no more than $200,000 per year ($40,000 x 4.5)

 

adjusted for inflation... workers starting pay remain constant... so this 40 years only ministers' productivity went up?

 

Fresh uni grads from private institution salary not so high. ($2K to $3K)

[Icedbs]

  On 5/3/2012 at 5:51 PM, Happily1986 said:

Yes i agree that foreign speculation is the key reason behind surging property valuation(s). However i do not quite agree with your statement that Singaporeans are rich because of foreign money.

 

I do not believe that capital is a zero sum game. All those eye popping paper gains were not accompanied with an equivalent and corresponding pouring in of foreign monies in the housing market. Market sentiments dictates capital creation. if the bullish market so desire that the valuation is fair game then it will be. The foreigners help drive the demand yes but to say that the cashouts have been financed solely by foreign capital is quite a misnomer.

 

I am simply taking issue with the way you phrase it. it connotes a different understanding.

 

When I say "foreign money" I meant money belonging to the FTs.

 

Whether the money come from foreign country or from their earnings in Spore is not the point.

 

However, FTs fueled the demand, pushed up property prices. and in that sense many Sporeans also gain in wealth through the appreciation of their property.

 

So while we complain about them, let's recognized that without them, Sporeans wouldn't have gone cash rich quickly over the last 5-10 years.

 

 

[Icedbs]

haha..no kpkb already?

 

I noticed that after everytime I post, most people would stop complaining.

 

Did I give you guys enlightenment from my posts?

[Throttle2]

  On 5/4/2012 at 2:59 AM, Icedbs said:

haha..no kpkb already?

 

I noticed that after everytime I post, most people would stop complaining.

 

Did I give you guys enlightenment from my posts?

 

 

help me help me, I'm dying of middle income stagnation syndrome........... arhhhgghh...

 

 

er, like that counted or not?

 

heeheee

[RealSabbie]

  On 5/4/2012 at 3:56 AM, Throttle2 said:

help me help me, I'm dying of middle income stagnation syndrome........... arhhhgghh...

 

 

er, like that counted or not?

 

heeheee

Not counted, you not middle income don't act like one, you are ELITE.

[Wyfitms]

no use kbkp in sg. Unfortunately, it's every man for himself in sg.

 

If u are stagnant, then too bad. LHL already said it;s no fun being poor in sg.

[Cwk]

  On 5/4/2012 at 2:59 AM, Icedbs said:

haha..no kpkb already?

 

I noticed that after everytime I post, most people would stop complaining.

 

Did I give you guys enlightenment from my posts?

" Did I give you guys enlightenment from my posts? " Enlightenment? You ever heard of this saying - The smart ones are full of doubt, while the dumb and stupid are always cocksure. This typifies you exactly. Your mind is so obtuse and dim that you can't see further than the tip of your nose. Your shallow reasoning reflects that.

Property prices come and go in cycles, due to a host of factors which I will not even begin to discuss with you, knowing that you do not possess one bit of intellect to grasp any of that. The presence of FTs doesn't mean that prices will only go up, which is what you are so sure about. Those highly leveraged poor folks, FTs and locals alike, holding the ball when the market tumbles, and markets have tumbled and will tumble again (understand?), will be badly affected.

And who makes bundles no matter how the market turns?

[Icedbs]

  On 5/4/2012 at 4:43 AM, Cwk said:

" Did I give you guys enlightenment from my posts? " Enlightenment? You ever heard of this saying - The smart ones are full of doubt, while the dumb and stupid are always cocksure. This typifies you exactly. Your mind is so obtuse and dim that you can't see further than the tip of your nose. Your shallow reasoning reflects that.

Property prices come and go in cycles, due to a host of factors which I will not even begin to discuss with you, knowing that you do not possess one bit of intellect to grasp any of that. The presence of FTs doesn't mean that prices will only go up, which is what you are so sure about. Those highly leveraged poor folks, FTs and locals alike, holding the ball when the market tumbles, and markets have tumbled and will tumble again (understand?), will be badly affected.

And who makes bundles no matter how the market turns?

 

You teaching me about properties and investments?

 

Haiz.....never mind. I suggest you do more homework first.

 

Don't go teach another fellow how to drive only to realize later that guy is a professional driver. It's quite embarassing that way.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Icedbs

[Icedbs]

  On 5/4/2012 at 3:56 AM, Throttle2 said:

help me help me, I'm dying of middle income stagnation syndrome........... arhhhgghh...

 

 

er, like that counted or not?

 

heeheee

 

You are not counted. Those wipe tables and collect dead bodies one all not counted.

[RealSabbie]

  On 5/4/2012 at 4:43 AM, Cwk said:

" Did I give you guys enlightenment from my posts? " Enlightenment? You ever heard of this saying - The smart ones are full of doubt, while the dumb and stupid are always cocksure. This typifies you exactly. Your mind is so obtuse and dim that you can't see further than the tip of your nose. Your shallow reasoning reflects that.

Property prices come and go in cycles, due to a host of factors which I will not even begin to discuss with you, knowing that you do not possess one bit of intellect to grasp any of that. The presence of FTs doesn't mean that prices will only go up, which is what you are so sure about. Those highly leveraged poor folks, FTs and locals alike, holding the ball when the market tumbles, and markets have tumbled and will tumble again (understand?), will be badly affected.

And who makes bundles no matter how the market turns?

 

Yes, find out who you talking to first, people is formerly senior management and full time trader and investor now, only missing part of his portfolio is a wife because he is wary of women who will cream off half his net worth.