ST Forum: Aware Disagrees With Mr Lee

[Vulcann]

Well it is not often you see open disagreement with the old man and it gets published...

 

From ST Forum:

 

http://www.straitstimes.com/STForum/Story/...ory_712274.html

 

MARRIAGE, MOTHERHOOD AND CAREER

 

Aware disagrees with Mr Lee

 

Published on Sep 13, 2011

 

THE stark choice between motherhood and professional advancement presented in Mr Lee Kuan Yew's comments to Ms Joan Sim is not new ('A PhD's fine, but what about love and babies?'; last Tuesday).

 

In 1983, he said: 'We shouldn't get our women into jobs where they cannot, at the same time, be mothers.'

 

In 1994, he said that 'attractive and intelligent young ladies' should go to finishing colleges so that they will be 'marvellous helpers of their husband's career'.

 

And now, Ms Sim has been advised to stop wasting time on her doctorate and find a boyfriend instead. These views contradict the recent statements by Minister of State for Community Development, Youth and Sports Halimah Yacob to the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women (Cedaw) that gender equality is central to Singapore's socio-economic growth and that 'maximising the full potential of every individual, male or female, is a priority'.

 

Under Cedaw, the Government is obliged to 'take appropriate measures to modify the social and cultural patterns of the conduct of men and women based on the idea of stereotypical roles of men and women'. However, state policies have not kept pace with social developments and changing gender roles.

 

Fathers are not entitled to paid paternity leave, reinforcing the social expectation that mothers should bear most of the caregiving responsibilities.

 

Flexible working arrangements attractive to mothers of young children are not widely available. Infant care facilities are inadequate for the country's needs. Such policies make raising children a daunting prospect for working women who want to continue their careers after becoming mothers. The State should take the lead in making family a more attractive option for these women, starting with a change of governmental attitude and the policies stated above.

 

The Scandinavian countries have shown that appropriate state policies that counter social norms can reverse declining fertility rates.

 

Public statements made by influential figures like Mr Lee are also important to shaping social attitudes.

 

Remarks that imply that women belong at home and men should be primarily providers undermine the efforts of men and women who struggle every day to meet the demands of family and working life.

 

Implying that marriage and motherhood are more important than education and work belittles the choices and contributions of women who prefer to be single or childless.

 

Such comments also perpetuate sexist stereotypes for a younger generation.

 

Nicole Tan (Ms)

President

Association of Women for Action and Research (Aware)

Edited September 12, 2011 by Vulcann

[Good-Carbuyer]

Generally both sexes can do/achieve many things alone/together.

I believe MM was trying to show his sincere maturity this time.

Being women by nature mans that lady beat hands-down about 50% of the competition to be a mother (men are the 50% losers to be mothers).

However, that same lady certainly face 100% competition as a PHD holder (she has to compete against competitors of both sexes).

I believe more practical for a lady to utilise her natural assets/talent to forward herself, be a mother of PHD-holders, than be a PHD-holder herself

I am not doing PHD. I am doing bird-watching

[Csnewbie]

Nicole Tan must be a Tomboy!

[Icedbs]

I think this Nicole Tan has taken the wrong context from MM's advise.

 

If I have a daughter, 27 and a PHD, I would have told her the same about finding a boyfriend. Afterall, I don't think she will have problem finding a job.

 

And I am sure Nicole Tan would have said the same to her daughter as well.

 

Hence, by asking her to find a bf doesn't mean I am trying to belittle women who prefer to be single. I don't see the connection.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tigerwoods]

AWARE Fights anything that gives them a hint that they are the weaker sex.

I totally agree with LKY that getting PHD/Career is secondary. Getting a relationship and thus marrying and having a family is always 1st.

For me, a man, I also find that Career is secondary. Family comes 1st.

Seems AWARE is not aware at all.

[Littleknown]

Fathers are not entitled to paid paternity leave, reinforcing the social expectation that mothers should bear most of the caregiving responsibilities.

 

Flexible working arrangements attractive to mothers of young children are not widely available. Infant care facilities are inadequate for the country's needs. Such policies make raising children a daunting prospect for working women who want to continue their careers after becoming mothers. The State should take the lead in making family a more attractive option for these women, starting with a change of governmental attitude and the policies stated above.

 

The Scandinavian countries have shown that appropriate state policies that counter social norms can reverse declining fertility rates.

 

I think this is the most important part of her letter.

 

It shows the Gov is not doing enough, not spending enough to help fertility rates.

 

This is classic, tell you we have a problem, dont really fix it or do so superficially but promote only one solution (importing FT etc) that fills their cronies' pockets.

 

Now still dare to shout back at a girl. Best defense is offense and act righteous. 60.1% will buy it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Csnewbie]

AWARE Fights anything that gives them a hint that they are the weaker sex.

I totally agree with LKY that getting PHD/Career is secondary. Getting a relationship and thus marrying and having a family is always 1st.

For me, a man, I also find that Career is secondary. Family comes 1st.

Seems AWARE is not aware at all.

AMARE where...(Association of Men for Action and Research)

 

i want to stay at home and make babies.

Edited September 13, 2011 by Csnewbie

[Funner]

no money to buy food to put on the table

where is the point for finding a boyfriend

 

so what if "potential" to find a job later

we all know the job market

potential is meaningless

today have high potential but tomorrow become obsolete, what is the use

 

people are just being practical

 

alot of people talk c@@k like sing song here

 

family come first and career come second

if you dont have a good career , how to find money to give the family a good life, children good school and etc

 

the truth of the matter is

at different stages of life, priorities changes

it is nOT so black and white

[Littleknown]

AWARE Fights anything that gives them a hint that they are the weaker sex.

I totally agree with LKY that getting PHD/Career is secondary. Getting a relationship and thus marrying and having a family is always 1st.

For me, a man, I also find that Career is secondary. Family comes 1st.

Seems AWARE is not aware at all.

 

This girl is only a pawn. LKY's rebuttal is really at Singaporeans at large. Currently our so called low fertility underpins and justifies the FT policy.

 

Sure, agree with LKY in that exchange in principle. But this is how political points are scored. LKY is an expert in this.

 

We need to take steps back and look at the actual policy.

 

The only lesson this girl needs to take back is to be better thinking on her own's feet.

[Tigerwoods]

no money to buy food to put on the table

where is the point for finding a boyfriend

 

so what if "potential" to find a job later

we all know the job market

potential is meaningless

today have high potential but tomorrow become obsolete, what is the use

 

people are just being practical

 

alot of people talk c@@k like sing song here

 

family come first and career come second

if you dont have a good career , how to find money to give the family a good life, children good school and etc

 

the truth of the matter is

at different stages of life, priorities changes

it is nOT so black and white

Hear of Multi-tasking ?

 

[Ysc3]

can anyone show me a post or discussion that does not bear the word "FT" or any slightest misdirection to the foreign workforce ?

 

why can't there be a simple discussion just on the subject itself ??

 

always easier to blame it on "others" ?

 

anyway, when i read the write-up in today's newspapers, first thing came to my mind is : rebel without a cause, arguing for the sake of argument.

[Joseph22]

no money to buy food to put on the table

where is the point for finding a boyfriend

 

so what if "potential" to find a job later

we all know the job market

potential is meaningless

today have high potential but tomorrow become obsolete, what is the use

 

people are just being practical

 

alot of people talk c@@k like sing song here

 

family come first and career come second

if you dont have a good career , how to find money to give the family a good life, children good school and etc

 

the truth of the matter is

at different stages of life, priorities changes

it is nOT so black and white

 

By the time you find good career, you are too old to reproduce liao.

 

seriously, i seen lots of ppl tell me, the will settle down only when they earn so much.. when they reach that target, they tell me not enough money to settle down yet need another amount already.

 

Its never about how much you earn but how you plan your finance.

[Joseph22]

From ST Forum:

 

http://www.straitstimes.com/STForum/Story/...ory_712274.html

 

MARRIAGE, MOTHERHOOD AND CAREER

 

Aware disagrees with Mr Lee

 

Published on Sep 13, 2011

 

And now, Ms Sim has been advised to stop wasting time on her doctorate and find a boyfriend instead. These views contradict the recent statements by Minister of State for Community Development, Youth and Sports Halimah Yacob to the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women (Cedaw) that gender equality is central to Singapore's socio-economic growth and that 'maximising the full potential of every individual, male or female, is a priority'.

 

Failure to read properly, LKY say, hope she find her bf together with getting the PHD where got say wasting time.

 

Fathers are not entitled to paid paternity leave, reinforcing the social expectation that mothers should bear most of the caregiving responsibilities.

 

This is something new, i got my paid paternity leave.

unless of course she mean long leave like say 1 month?? but does she know the purpose of the maternity leave?? its to allow the mother to recover from the birth.. a mother who miscarraged at late infancy stage or still birth will also have 1 month hospitalisation leave.

 

Implying that marriage and motherhood are more important than education and work belittles the choices and contributions of women who prefer to be single or childless.

 

Such comments also perpetuate sexist stereotypes for a younger generation.

 

Nicole Tan (Ms)

President

Association of Women for Action and Research (Aware)

 

isnt it obvious. you study liao, go work.. remain single, old liao look back, what had you achieve?? nothing... left any legacy behind?? likely nothing..

 

for male and female, the same. Our children are our only legacy.

[Jman888]

Nicole Tan must be a Tomboy!

 

 

[laugh]

[Jman888]

AWARE Fights anything that gives them a hint that they are the weaker sex.

I totally agree with LKY that getting PHD/Career is secondary. Getting a relationship and thus marrying and having a family is always 1st.

For me, a man, I also find that Career is secondary. Family comes 1st.

Seems AWARE is not aware at all.

 

 

i read a book called "politically incorrect wife", i think more woman should read that

 

it relates the duties of woman/wife in the bible and it is written by american couple, so dun shoot me

Edited September 13, 2011 by Jman888

[Littleknown]

can anyone show me a post or discussion that does not bear the word "FT" or any slightest misdirection to the foreign workforce ?

 

why can't there be a simple discussion just on the subject itself ??

 

always easier to blame it on "others" ?

 

anyway, when i read the write-up in today's newspapers, first thing came to my mind is : rebel without a cause, arguing for the sake of argument.

 

So are you saying that our low fertility rate has absolutely nothing to do with our FT policy? If not, I guess you like incomplete discussions?

[Jman888]

Failure to read properly, LKY say, hope she find her bf together with getting the PHD where got say wasting time.

 

 

 

This is something new, i got my paid paternity leave.

unless of course she mean long leave like say 1 month?? but does she know the purpose of the maternity leave?? its to allow the mother to recover from the birth.. a mother who miscarraged at late infancy stage or still birth will also have 1 month hospitalisation leave.

 

 

 

isnt it obvious. you study liao, go work.. remain single, old liao look back, what had you achieve?? nothing... left any legacy behind?? likely nothing..

 

for male and female, the same. Our children are our only legacy.

 

 

they have dogs to inherit their million dollars fortune

[Celicar]

Actually, the key word is balance and I think "former Prime Minister" (as they are starting to call him now, since he resigned from being MM) Lee was trying to highlight to the lady that she should not pursue education while omitting the other important area in her life. I'm also rather sure that had fPM Lee been talking to a guy pursuing a PhD, he would have told the guy the same thing, to find a gf soon and start a family.