Old WW2 Relic disposals

[Adrianli]

Sorry, I cant view what u written. But I dont give a damn abt ur posting either.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2011 by Adrianli

[Vulcann]

Having said that, did the authorities every thought of it where terrorist may attempt to buy this "scrap metal" from the foreign workers?

It's a scary thought that private security agencies had to be hired to guard this dangerous item instead of the real enforcement officers looking after it.

 

Imagine if a scrap yard owner has dubious dealings with dubious characters and some esctatic workers hauled in such "scrap" material, the owner will only be too happy to buy it and then sell it off to these ill-intentioned chaps...

 

The chap did not even have to smuggle anything but make use of it to do something funny...

 

BTW, US troops in both Iraq & Afghanistan are having headaches having to deal with IEDs almost on a daily basis....

 

To those who claimed the unexploded shell at the Sungai Kadut incident was not that dangerous, the IEDs that are killing or maiming US troops are mostly made of unexploded arty shells, the same one found in Sungei Kadut....

[Elfenstar]

A 160kg bomb is not a national threat?

 

You are always bias towards the SPF due to your previous occupation... But surely even then I did not expect you to disagree it is a national threat.

 

It's only a threat if unsecured.

[Elfenstar]

are you serious?... do you encourage our RSAF fighter pilot who clashes the multi-million dollars F16 due to negligence, killing innocent cilvilians along the way, yet turns around and ask us laymen, "Can you do better?"??

 

We get to criticise based in assumptions even if the crash is due to manufacturers fault?

[KARTer]

We get to criticise based in assumptions even if the crash is due to manufacturers fault?

i think you have missed reading the word "negligence" in my post ie pilot errors.

[Elfenstar]

It is a scary thought on what would have happened if during the process of happily hauling the ordnance to make a fast buck, the ignorant foreign workers are vaporised in a flash...

 

Wonder if they had dropped the THING during the actual process.

 

And for how many times did they drop the 160kg "treasure"...

 

Use forkilft to carry it some more OMG...

 

We have had numerous cases so far of earthworks contractors during their excavation works coming across buried WWII munitions.

 

To date I am not sure if there is a SOP for any contractor or the general public to deal with it. (Wonder of the WSHA got any section specifically dealing with uncovered unexploded ordnance from the ground)

 

The authorities should issue a SOP for everyone, especially lowly educated foreign workers, if they can across these dangerous objects.

 

And please no more distinction between private or public land when it comes to such WWII relics.

 

We are not talking about a stranded cat on a tree or a menacing python in your backyard.

 

For the earlier bit before the police were informed, I figure things could be done better. How it is like now I don't know.

 

For the rest, it should be a simple AOS. Is there an immediate danger to the general public? Yes = actions should be taken by authorities immediately. If no, who is the property under. State = costs should be borne by state. If pte, then the owner should. However, the authorities should advise on what the owners need to do.

 

IMHO emergency services should remain as just that, for emergencies only.

[Elfenstar]

Hi,

 

According to news report, the police did not ensure safety at all. The owner has to employ two certis cisco guards to do that leh. See reported news clip :

 

 

Mr Yap said on Monday that the police had informed him that they would not be able to help get rid of the war relic since it was found on private property.

 

He told them the land was leased from statutory board JTC Corporation, and therefore was not private property. The police then provided him with the contact numbers of two private bomb disposal companies.

 

Mr Yap paid more than $600 for two officers from security management firm Certis Cisco to stand watch over the war relic that night.

 

He said he called DPM Teo's office, telling the staff member he was put through to that it was a 'very urgent' matter and that he needed help.

 

Shortly after, he said, he received a call from the SAF's bomb disposal unit. It is understood that the bomb will be detonated today.

 

Cisco officers have all the powers of regular police officers while on duty. The difference is that they have to be paid for.

[Elfenstar]

So basically, police can refuse to do anything, and yet insist property owner rectify the situation at his own expense. When the problem wasn't even of his making, and noone can reasonably conclude that he could have known the problem existed in the first place. Wah, liddat mata win oreddy man!

 

Interesting examples you chose to quote there. In both those cases, the only reason those things are illegal is that there is an element of public hazard present. Illegal works = presumed safety hazard to people living inside, people visiting or people living in vicinity. Illegal mods = presumed safety/health hazard to driver, passenger and other road users.

 

What this case has in common with those examples is that there may be a clear element of public danger in unexploded ordnance. Yet the police chose to do nothing substantive to protect the public interest.

 

That's what it boils down to - public interest, the police's role in protecting it, and their failure to have done so in this instance. What I find most vexing about this situation is that if this guy (the property owner) had instead found a priceless relic of national historical significance, the police would likely have been quite happy to relieve him of it asap, citing the public interest. Even without any element of danger involved (or perhaps, especially because of it?), they would've been happy to seize what they deem the rightful property of the Nation. It's heads they win, tails we lose.

 

In another respect, your examples are poor ones (certainly poorer than you characterised Requiem's analogy as being). A house buyer and a car buyer are expected to do their due diligence and are held accountable for problems they could *reasonably* have foreseen or detected. Noone in their right mind is going to accuse this poor chap of having been reasonably able to foresee the finding of an unexploded bomb on his land! And if such an unreasonable assertion were to be made, shouldn't the gahmen who sold/leased him the land be ultimately liable (after all, this is JTC land)?

 

Whenever there is a bomb discovered, the police will consult the Explosives Ordinance Disposal Unit (EODU) which is from the SAF, and the actual actions in relation to the diffusing, disposing, or informing that the person needs to hire a private contractor etc of the bomb will be under their purview.

 

"Defusing".

 

My contention is that the police could've done a much better job coordinating things. If they had done a proper job even coordinating with the relevant parties, do you think they would've left such a poor impression on this Mr Yap chap and others? The distinct impression given here is that of the police having shrugged their shoulders and washed their hands.

 

All the police can do is ensure that safety is not compromised if the bomb goes off before anything can be done. I'm sure there would have been a cordoned off area with a security detail, so their job in relation to security and safety is done, and now its for the land owner to worry about how to get rid of the item, which IMHO is reasonable because there is no longer a threat nor is there a security issue.

 

Really? Then why did Mr Yap have to pay for Certis Cisco officers to guard the device, if the police and their cordon was sufficient?

 

Of course if you think that BCA or LTA should fix illegal works done by a previous owner from my examples in para 1, then there's nothing I can say.

 

There's nothing to say, because I've already refuted your poorly chosen examples.

 

Technically all faults mentioned could be found if the owners checked. Be it with LTA, or BCA, or in this case independent contractors who specialise in finding bombs etc. As some others have mentioned, the discovering of unexploded ordinace is a commonplace incidence for construction crews. People are being complacent, and I would rather my tax dollars not be spent to cater to them.

 

None of us were at scene to see the placement of the bomb etc, so none of us is actually qualified to determine if there was a danger to the general public or not. As for national interest, if it was an item of national interest, the police do not have any powers to seize it. I don't know why people assume that they can do that.

 

Property wise, it would have been a long term lease from JTC. Think of it as leasehold property like HDB or private properties that are not in perpetuity. If it was one of the short term JTC lease, they would be responsible for the disposal.

 

Cisco wise, well as mentioned to another bro, they are vested with all the powers of the police when on duty, and since it was assessed that there was no danger to the general public, I do not see a need to waste public resources, and I'm sure the police would only have left after assessing that there was no danger to the general public.

 

Personally, with existing facts, I don't think the police did anything wrong. I think its simply the developers or construction people trying to be cheap, having little knowlege of protocol, or the media just wanting to sensationalise things. The fact that the police even gave them the contact details of private bomb disposal companies, should show they already informed the company of what it needed to do, right down to who they could call.

[Elfenstar]

The ST article mentioned that the manager paid $600 to hire CISCO guards to guard the bomb.

Why isn't the police involved in guarding such dangerous materials and instead handed over to auxillary police?

Commercial activities like protecting the delivery of cash or expensive items are acceptable. If the police ain't going to do anything, then why do we need the police force for in the first place? Might as well everyone hire their own bodyguards.

 

One word to describe the police force quality - DEGRADED.

Now we can tell the difference between how police duties are carried out in real life as opposed to what they try to boost their image in the current Chinese drama.

 

Was there a danger to the public? If no, why should public resources be wasted when a private resource is sufficient?

[Elfenstar]

the bomb could have been taken away by an unknown party, and he reuses it later elsewhere eg istana, MRT train station.... this cant be lightly ruled out as implied in you laugh smiley............. do get a bit serious my fren you may have been part of the line POs, i apprecaite what you have done even though i wasnt an eyewitness but taking your words for it, but lets call a spake a spake (looking the Home Team as an entity, not splitting between decisions/policies makers and line POs, hope you understand this

 

To be honest I don't think they did anything wrong. They assessed, that there was no danger, they advised on what actions should be taken. Its really that straightforward.

[Elfenstar]

already it is happening

people get assaulted

police ask you to take civil action

 

they want to keep their statistics for crime low

to polish minister shoes

 

I know this bloke is banned, but for the record, they do not have powers into this unless grievous hurt is caused, a dangerours or offensive weapon is used, or both sides get slapped for affray or rioting (number of people dependant).

 

[Elfenstar]

Maybe they were off duty but willing to jaga the polis car for free?

 

This one is same as SAF. Dereliction of duty. Definitely not condoned, and also its the actions of some, not the entire police force.

[Elfenstar]

This is what I could never understand. If I have no money to sue, some farker can come over and assault me? Makes no sense. So only rich people will not get hit cos they have money to fight? :angry:

 

So when will action be taken? When someone is dead? :angry: :angry:

 

No money is needed, unless you want to sue the other party for cash etc. You go to the courts to ask them to give the police powers to investigate.

[Elfenstar]

These directions could come from the top or even the ministers themselves.

 

Either way, the Home Affairs minister is responsible.

If this is not his direction and ideas are from the SPF leadership, then he must be sleeping in parliament or as a minister for a long time to not even know what is happening. As a minister, if he is not satisfied with the performance or the direction the SPF is heading, he could easily call for changes.

 

If not, then blame the Finance minister for not allocating enough budget for the SPF for additional manpower.

 

These directions come from the heads lah. Where else.

 

As for manpower, unless things have changed drastically, besides IMHO being underpaid (at least at line level), there aren't enough people wanting to join, so more often than not they're understaffed.

[Elfenstar]

By right police call saf, saf will go down, meantime police cordon area n guard place...

 

Did procedure change?

 

The only reason I can think of is eod was fully utilized that day...

 

Details I can't reveal much

 

 

That's the procedure if there's any immediate danger or potential danger to the general public.

[Elfenstar]

"..... AC Lim said it was the CBRE

[Elfenstar]

Maybe all the govt agencies should chip in and outsource PR / CorCom function to the commercial experts............ the latter can easily turn black into white, and then back to black, and nobody knows the better...........

 

Errm from what I have heard (i.e. hearsay) they already do hire them as consultants.

[Elfenstar]

Imagine if a scrap yard owner has dubious dealings with dubious characters and some esctatic workers hauled in such "scrap" material, the owner will only be too happy to buy it and then sell it off to these ill-intentioned chaps...

 

The chap did not even have to smuggle anything but make use of it to do something funny...

 

BTW, US troops in both Iraq & Afghanistan are having headaches having to deal with IEDs almost on a daily basis....

 

To those who claimed the unexploded shell at the Sungai Kadut incident was not that dangerous, the IEDs that are killing or maiming US troops are mostly made of unexploded arty shells, the same one found in Sungei Kadut....

 

The scrapyard bit is LL. There's nothing anybody can do if nobody knows about it.