Low birth trick question.

[SimonTan]

if the 1.2 replacement birthdate is too low from the locals, and one solution is to keep importing ready FT to make up the short fall.

 

I am puzzled, these FT are middle age mostly, say above 30s.

Will these FT have the 2.1 birth rate to keep Singapore population young?

So when we reach 7million with these FT, ten years later these FT will also grow old to become the aged in Singapore.

By that time where will the 2.1 replacement rate come from?

 

We need NEWborn at the rate of 2.1 to maintain a healthy population n society.

 

I think importing FT is only delaying the issues for another ~10 years, by that time it will be a bigger issues!

 

Therefor I think the simplistic argument that we need Import FT is unsustainable.

Unless these FT will sumpar to produce 2.1 babies in order to become PR/citizens, else it's a time bomb just waiting to explode sooner or later!

[Yeobh]

What they got to do is go to all friendly countries and bring in young orphans to Singapore under govt care - give them schooling and by the time they are adults they are already full pledge sporean.

[Scoots]

if the 1.2 replacement birthdate is too low from the locals, and one solution is to keep importing ready FT to make up the short fall.

 

I am puzzled, these FT are middle age mostly, say above 30s.

Will these FT have the 2.1 birth rate to keep Singapore population young?

So when we reach 7million with these FT, ten years later these FT will also grow old to become the aged in Singapore.

By that time where will the 2.1 replacement rate come from?

 

We need NEWborn at the rate of 2.1 to maintain a healthy population n society.

 

I think importing FT is only delaying the issues for another ~10 years, by that time it will be a bigger issues!

 

Therefor I think the simplistic argument that we need Import FT is unsustainable.

Unless these FT will sumpar to produce 2.1 babies in order to become PR/citizens, else it's a time bomb just waiting to explode sooner or later!

 

I too have thoughts abouth this:

 

1. What's the formula for birth rate? (Singaporeean) births / # of citizens?

If yes, then with the number of citizens increased by the sharp increase in foreign born citizens, then wouldn't this 'birthrate' statistic be always pulled down by the increase in foreign born citizens?

 

2.How many of the foreign born citizens contribute to the birthrate statistic? Those that are single / married with no intention of kids will actually contribute to the problem rather than the solution. Those who already have kids before they become citizens also do to contribute to the 'birthrate' so are we headed for trouble? or is it just a problem of the statistician not computing the figures correctly (afterall, we can have a minister blowing a YOG budget by 3 times ... doesn't really instill a lot of confidence with the public on how good with numbers those guys are)

 

 

[Blackyv]

how about by the time these FT grow old and their offspring grow up, "they" will get their offspring to dump them to "retirement village" in bintan, batam and some says jb???? will that make the formula right?...

[Perrier]

You ppl still don't get it right?????

 

It is not supposed to replace the shortfall. Look at it from another angle.

 

The real objective is to keep our economy running. A bigger economy means more revenue.

 

If we ran out of human battery, the machines will die off. It doesn't matter how long FT will stay, in fact if they don't stay all the better.

 

No need to worry about an aging population cos they will be long gone. New hopeful will just fill up the numbers again, and these are the actual ones that will be contributing to the growth.

 

Their only usefulness is when they actually worked (cheap labour) and pay the taxes. Imagine a corporate with no pension scheme.

[Help1]

seriously if govt laments abt having low birth rate, then instead of importing FTs to fill in the population, why can't they introduce more incentives (i.e. incentives that go to primary/secondary level). lifetsyle, work stress, high cost living are one of the reasons that may cause the birth rate to drop. Govt, pls wake up, baby bonus, income tax rebate/relief, child care leave etc....there are many ways to help to reduce the burden of parents but u simply dun want to open up the pocket. for every $ u spend on true blue singaporean, u would squeeze every single cts from us.....

 

govt would rather lose billions of dollars on investment, then to use the $$$ to raise the birth rate. Govt like to compare our standard against european countries but always in denial of state in comparing their pro-family lifestyle and standards against us....

[SimonTan]

Mostly Chinese PR will come with one young kids. And that's not sufficient surely to meet the 2.1replacememt

rate. Lately I see so many grandparents of these new citizens taking care of their grandchild in Singapore, won't bringing in grandparents worsen the aged population unbalanced?

I hope my observation is wrong, I think I worried too much.

 

 

[Hao80]

I don't think our government is that stupid..

 

I do see a few FTs around in our company. They stay here for work, married and some with their kids born in Singapore..

 

So long ICA offers the father of the kids citizenship and if he accepted, the kids will automatically become Singaporeans. If the kids are boys, better still.

 

It is one way to boast our already low birthrate but bear in mind that these FTs after all come from a different culture and background.

 

Will we still have a common identity in the future after blending the FTs?

 

BTW the figure 1.16 is really scary.. That means we will have less young ppl,our future workforce will be less vibrant and we may have to retire beyond age 70 !!

[Atonchia]

if the 1.2 replacement birthdate is too low from the locals, and one solution is to keep importing ready FT to make up the short fall.

 

I am puzzled, these FT are middle age mostly, say above 30s.

Will these FT have the 2.1 birth rate to keep Singapore population young?

So when we reach 7million with these FT, ten years later these FT will also grow old to become the aged in Singapore.

By that time where will the 2.1 replacement rate come from?

 

We need NEWborn at the rate of 2.1 to maintain a healthy population n society.

 

I think importing FT is only delaying the issues for another ~10 years, by that time it will be a bigger issues!

 

Therefor I think the simplistic argument that we need Import FT is unsustainable.

Unless these FT will sumpar to produce 2.1 babies in order to become PR/citizens, else it's a time bomb just waiting to explode sooner or later!

 

 

Even if they have 2 kids, those two kids will not want to have kids when they grow up.

 

Another round of flood gates?

[Ahwhye]

please lah...........u believe their 'import FT to solve low birth rate' talk meh? you think those char lway teow chinaman and sales pinoy are here to produce babies?

 

i more incline to think it is still the 'growth at any cost' at work..............pump up the figures...squeeze as much as possible while still can, sustainable? your guess lor........

[NightWind]

You are right...The FTs are not stupid either. They know its only worthwhile to live in Sinkapoor as a foreigner with NONE of the handicaps of taking up roots here. They know life is tough and unlivable once they assume citizenship AND also have kids.

 

At the end of the day FTs are rational humans just like the locals. If the living conditions suck for the locals so the locals cant or wont have kids, the FTs will also likewise feels the same way when they become locals citizens and have kids.

 

U r right...such short sighted PAP styled solutions wont work. But this is an easier cheaper "solution" then actually addessing the real problem....i.e. making singapore more livable for the citizens...

 

if the 1.2 replacement birthdate is too low from the locals, and one solution is to keep importing ready FT to make up the short fall.

 

I am puzzled, these FT are middle age mostly, say above 30s.

Will these FT have the 2.1 birth rate to keep Singapore population young?

So when we reach 7million with these FT, ten years later these FT will also grow old to become the aged in Singapore.

By that time where will the 2.1 replacement rate come from?

 

We need NEWborn at the rate of 2.1 to maintain a healthy population n society.

 

I think importing FT is only delaying the issues for another ~10 years, by that time it will be a bigger issues!

 

Therefor I think the simplistic argument that we need Import FT is unsustainable.

Unless these FT will sumpar to produce 2.1 babies in order to become PR/citizens, else it's a time bomb just waiting to explode sooner or later!

 

[Atonchia]

I don't think our government is that stupid..

 

I do see a few FTs around in our company. They stay here for work, married and some with their kids born in Singapore..

 

So long ICA offers the father of the kids citizenship and if he accepted, the kids will automatically become Singaporeans. If the kids are boys, better still.

 

It is one way to boast our already low birthrate but bear in mind that these FTs after all come from a different culture and background.

 

Will we still have a common identity in the future after blending the FTs?

 

BTW the figure 1.16 is really scary.. That means we will have less young ppl,our future workforce will be less vibrant and we may have to retire beyond age 70 !!

 

 

MM already said can work till 85 and beyond if still fit.

[NightWind]

[NightWind]

Today

20 Jan 2005

Lim Ai Ling

 

HERE'S WHY FAMILY-FRIENDLY BENEFITS DON'T FARE WELL HERE

------------------------------

[NightWind]

From: Mellanie Hewlitt - Singapore Review

Date: Mon Feb 24, 2003 6:00 pm

Subject: Singapore Needs A Little Love, Compassion & Love Potion 99.

 

Singapore Needs A Little Love and Compassion?

 

An amusing perception of the Singapore Procreation Process;

 

Everything runs like clockwork in squeaky clean, efficient little

Singapore. Well, almost everything at least. And what does the Ruling

Elite do if there is a problem in their neat tidy backyard? They

address it by way of laws, fines, taxes, imprisonments and law

suites, this after all is the PAP way. It has worked in the past and

it will always work in the future. But then again perhaps not.

 

The tiny city state and its ever paternalistic government have a

problem which cannot be solved by the usual cocktail of laws, fines,

litigation and campaigns. This problem is a highly personal one which

extends into the private bedrooms of its citizens. How does a well

meaning parent tell its usually compliant and obedient children

to "get on with it", to "make hay whilst the sun shines" and more

directly put, to "go forth, procreate, multiply and reproduce."?

 

Along with the status of a developed nation, Singapore has also

inherited its trade mark problems. Its population (particularly the

better educated and wealthier Chinese majority) is not replacing

itself and birth rates have been declining continously over the

years. And this is a problem which the paternalistic government

cannot address in its usual draconian style. No, you cannot impose a

fine, and neither can you pass a law to solve this sensitive issue.

And if left unaddressed, there is every potential that the little

city-state with its population of 4 million people will "develop"

itself to extinction.

 

The task is growing more urgent because the birth rate among

Singapore's four million people is falling steadily and now

languishes at 1.4 children per woman. That's below the 2.1

demographers say is necessary for a population to replace itself.

 

In the past, Singapore's ruling elite have approached the problem

with their usual efficiency and diligence, by way of campaigns and

policy implementations. Indeed, their attempt to play cupid had not

gone unnoticed and has been the source of much amusement (see

previous article attached below; "Government Promotes Unions Of Its

Best and Brightest; Soul Mates in 7 Minutes?", The Wallstreet

Journal).

 

After several failed attempts, the "Powers that be" finally realized

that (at least for matters of the heart, and bedroom type activities)

they cannot point a gun to a person's head and mandate him/her to

kick start the domestic baby making factory. No Mr Lee, it does not

work this way, that's not how Adam and Eve started out, and that's

certainly not how the Good Lord created the universe.

 

Perhaps one reason for the government's dismal failures is the

overwhelming emphasis on academic qualifications and other "hard

factors". The government set-up two different social units to

encourage marriage amongst the younger generation. One for graduates

(SDU, Singapore's best and brightest?) and one for non-graduates

(SDS). The underlying message of cause was that new generation of

Singaporeans should choose their partners and marry within the

confines of their own designated Academic Caste System. Hence, it is

small wonder why many younger and more liberal minded Singaporeans

find this archaic medieval academic caste system highly objectionable

and terribly unromantic.

 

Many may also remember the infamous "Graduate Mother Scheme" which

the government tried to implement a decade ago. For those who are

unfamiliar, it would be best described as the PAP's way to implement

their version of the Laws of Un-Natural Selection, and propagate the

ruling elite's own twisted version of the theory of evolution.

Graduate couples were then given huge financial incentives and

support to have more children. The rationale being that children from

graduate couples were more likely to be intelligent and gifted. Of

cause the flip side of the equation logically implied that children

of non-graduate parents were total misfits and genetically inferior!

 

This measure of the worth of a human life (accessed solely on

academic merits) raised many questioning eyebrows, from graduates and

non-graduates alike. And it came as no surprise that the scheme was a

colossal failure, a heartening reflection that the Singapore

population still retained some semblance of independent thought and

dignity when it comes to matters of the heart at least

 

But aside from the colossal failures of the government sponsored

match making programs, a host of other factors account for the

declining birth rates. "Go forth and multiply" you say? Well that's

more easily said then done for the average couple in Singapore with

an average household income of approximately SGD3-4000/-. Unless you

are part of the ruling elite who take home a minimum net income of

SGD150,000/- per month (or SGD1.6 million per year), (the average pay

packet for a PAP minister), life is not easy in expensive little

Singapore.

 

The start-up costs for a new family can be staggering, with big

ticket items like a car and a house. Even a 1.6 Litre Japanese car

will cost at least SGD80,000/-, which is the equivalent of a decent 3

bedroom house in some countries. And a small 1,200 Sq Ft apartment

can set you back SGD1,000,000.- and more, depending on the locality

and tenor. What about government "subsidised" housing?

Well, "subsidised" housing here takes the form of HDB (Housing

Development Board) flats which will cost between SGD200,000 to

SGD400,000/-, the equivalent of a decent size house in Australia or

New Zealand.

 

And the costs and expenses do not stop here. The government has also

imposed compulsory savings in the form of CPF (Central Provident

Fund), which is mandatory and ties up approx 20% of the monthly pay

of the citizens. There is no access to these funds until you reach

the retirement age of 55 years. And if you fall ill or need a

operation before this age, good luck matey you are on your own. Then

there are the other daily expenses like ERP (Electronic Road

Pricing), maid levies, GST, all of which is imposed in a city state

which is conspicuously bereft of any public welfare or unemployment

benefits.

 

In short, staggering initial capital outlay required in starting a

family here, as well as increasing costs of living, have paved the

way for dual income households where both husband and wife typically

work 12 hour days just to make ends meet. And after a hectic work

day, there is little time left over for other more "romantic"

pastimes, let alone raising a child.

 

Even when there is an increase in marriage rates, there is no sure

sign that this would reverse the declining birth rates as the vast

majority of couples either opt not to have children, or in the event

they do, the wealthy and affluent class (which are most targeted by

the Singapore Government) have instead chosen to have children

abroad. One such individual was a banker (who requested to remain

anonymous) who stated that he would want his child to have a normal

and happy childhood, as opposed to the rigid, oppressive and highly

competitive pressure-cooked education system in Singapore. He took a

3 week holiday and arranged for his wife to give birth to their

bouncing baby boy in New York, so that the child had the rights and

benefits of US citizenship. And theirs is not an isolated case as

there are many who have opted for a better and easier life for their

children via this route.

 

Far from encouraging increasing birth-rates, a combination

of dismal government policies and "social engineering", and

unfavourable work and living conditions (for the locals) have

resulted in an exodus of the more affluent segments of the

population, further worsening an already bad situation.

 

At the end of the day, the act of procreation is highly intimate and

individualistic, very personal in nature. One really wonders if years

of repressive indoctrination have robbed the native populace of the

free will, independence and ability to rise to the occasion,

instilling an over-dependent, compliant and submissive culture which

is anti-thesis to the aggressive survival instinct that is crucial

for reproduction.

 

But not withstanding the difficult and oppressive social and

financial environment moulded by the government, surely our fore

fathers and distant ancestors have faced greater challenges in the

past, and still managed to sow their royal oats and ensured the

continued existence of their bloodlines? So what's really missing in

Singapore's Procreation Equation? A liberal dose of good old

fashioned love.

 

One can almost picture the look of uncomprehending horror on the

faces of the Ruling Elite. How preposterous, marry and procreate in

the name of love? But that would mean breaching the Academic Caste

System! GOOD HAVENS NO! We cant' have people running all over the

place, haphazardly falling in love and procreating, that's wrong!

That's not within the prescribed framework of the nicely laid out

plans Singapore's Ruling Elite had crafted for Singapore Inc.

 

But some would argue that "letting nature take its own natural

course" is a formulae that has worked for humanity in the last two to

five thousand years. Perhaps its high time some brave hearted martyr

ventures forth and informs the "Powers that be in Singapore" that

they should try a little bit of good old fashioned love (and throw in

the obligatory bouquet of roses) and compassion, if they wished to

play cupid.

 

Perhaps its also time for the overzealous parent to leave the

children some slack, they are all grown up and they have to figure

this one out for themselves. Alternatively, does anyone have the

recipe for Love Potion No 9. If you do, please mark it URGENT and

forward it to the PAP.

 

To subscribe, simply send an e-mail to: [email protected]

 

[Darthrevan]

Lately I see so many grandparents of these new citizens taking care of their grandchild in Singapore, won't bringing in grandparents worsen the aged population unbalanced?

I hope my observation is wrong, I think I worried too much.

I also observed that in the past few years. Why are these grandparents allowed here? They not only not contributing economically, but adding to the burden of the new citizens. I think that the low birth rate is just an excuse. After all, getting foreigners here can induce spending and increase the nation's coffers..lodging, food, transport and the telco earnings..hmm..

 

 

 

[Ahwhye]

MM already said can work till 85 and beyond if still fit.

 

i guess most people dun mind to work at 85 if got millions dollars pay..........but hor; reality is that you got paycut instead as you grow old and that is provided if you still have a job after 60. And pickup drink cans and cupboard is not a job hor...............

[macrosszero]

You ppl still don't get it right?????

 

It is not supposed to replace the shortfall. Look at it from another angle.

 

The real objective is to keep our economy running. A bigger economy means more revenue.

 

If we ran out of human battery, the machines will die off. It doesn't matter how long FT will stay, in fact if they don't stay all the better.

 

No need to worry about an aging population cos they will be long gone. New hopeful will just fill up the numbers again, and these are the actual ones that will be contributing to the growth.

 

Their only usefulness is when they actually worked (cheap labour) and pay the taxes. Imagine a corporate with no pension scheme.

 

I remember seeing a cult classic movie on this.

 

Anyone wants to guess the title?

 

Hint: Keanu Reeves played Neo