Team orders again for Ferrari

[Hoppie24]

actually i agree for Alonso to pass Massa, Alonso was faster so he should go through rather than fighting eachother and end up like Vettel and Webber collision.

[Kac]

Now we are talking about golden boot liao. Striker are selfish(unless you are emile heskey) F1 driver are even worse. It depends on who the team(coach) favor.

 

Please allow me to phase it as such: If we are still in the middle of a season and the "Golden Boot" is currently still within contention within you (abeit lower in ranking), your teammate and other players from rival teams, will you be willing to cede a scoring opportunity to your teammate?

 

If you are the coach of the team, will you want to disadvangtage one of your player's chances @ the Golden Boot just to that another player will have a better chance at it, in the middle of the season?

 

Despite this, I suspect motorsporting Racing is actually quite a different discpline from soccer..

[Raycsk]

I dun agree with a driver to race for himself for a better looking CV. I am not sure whether F1 is really a team sport yet but looking at all team sport and taking soccer as an example, would there be a difference for a striker or midfielder or even the goalkeeper to score the winning goal for the team ? What matters is the result for the team at the end of the game/race.

 

Speaking about the race, as Alonso is clearly faster that Massa, so instead of letting him pass easily is the safe option because they do not want a repeat of Vettel and Webber trying to fight for the place and end up losing the race. I think it is better called as a team strategy rather than orders. ;)

 

I guess it can be seen differently. However I think we cannot compare this with football. Fair enough some racing teams clearly play preference for 1 driver over the other when the points for driver championship matter. But when it comes to Constructor's Championship it does not.

 

I agree with you. F1 is a team sport, but its also an individual sport.

 

No driver would want to be #2 for his entire career. Look at the driver dynamics in Red Bull and contrats this with McLaren. Clearly different teams operate differently. Sadly sometimes (most of the time in fact) are managed with much consideration of sponsorships.

 

This is a case whereby Masa got to the lead fair and square only to be told to hand it to his team mate. By letting Alonso pass Masa does not change the Constructor's points. Even if Alonso finishes 1 lap ahead of everyone else, it does not change his points. The only difference is in the points between Masa and Alonso.

 

I am sure Masa fans are not happy with this incident unlike Alonso fans.

 

Edited July 26, 2010 by Raycsk

[Kac]

Sadly sometimes (most of the time in fact) are managed with much consideration of sponsorships.

 

You do mean Santander, do you? :)

 

I am sure F1 fans are not happy with this incident unlike Alonso fans.

 

Corrected it for ya..

Edited July 26, 2010 by Kac

[Assaxefour]

Please allow me to phase it as such: If we are still in the middle of a season and the "Golden Boot" is currently still within contention within you (abeit lower in ranking), your teammate and other players from rival teams, will you be willing to cede a scoring opportunity to your teammate?

 

If you are the coach of the team, will you want to disadvangtage one of your player's chances @ the Golden Boot just to that another player will have a better chance at it, in the middle of the season?

 

Despite this, I suspect motorsporting Racing is actually quite a different discpline from soccer..

 

Of course F1 is quite different from football. but even the commentator conceded that Massa has got almost zero chance of winning the championship while Alonso still got chance. Coming back to the football comparison, the player that passes the ball to his teammate to score is a defender who got as much chance of winning the golden boot as Massa has for the championship, lol

Edited July 26, 2010 by Assaxefour

[Kac]

but even the commentator conceded that Massa has got almost zero chance of winning the championship while Alonso still got chance. Coming back to the football comparison, the player that passes the ball to his teammate to score is a defender who got as much chance of winning the golden boot as Massa has for the championship, lol

 

Well, the odds are low but as what someone I talked to, the ball is round, as is the wheel...In motorsports, anything can happen and you should never put all your eggs in your basket too soon lest something like Hungary 2009 happens..

 

Like I said, as long as the players are still in contention, no quarter should be given fighting for the Boot... The thing about Turn4Gate and Hockenheimgate (as our blokes in Twitter call it), is that its too bloody blatant and how they are trying to deny it..

 

I wonder if Rob will still be with Ferrari after this summer break..

[Dojon]

If Stefano was more concerned about the results, here's a news flash: SF would still have scored 43 points regardless of whether they engineer the swap. The swap in question only benefited Alonso per se...

 

Article 39.1: Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited, regardless of how you call it.

 

If Alonso had not been able to pass Massa, he might probably had a hard time defending his 2nd place from Vettel. For the fact that Massa was slower, it jeopardizes Alonso race as he needs to make sure Vettle doesn't pass him nor he collide with Massa. So it might not have been a 18+25 and 25+18 issue anymore.

 

It also proves that Massa was comfortably matching Vettel and holding him at 3rd place and Alonso also proved that he was faster for doing a consecutive fastest lap towards the end of the race although Vettel overwrites it in the last lap.

 

Last but not least, I think to prevent the Vettel & Webber incident was priority for the team i guess....

[Raycsk]

There is also the issue of legalised gambling. I'm sure there are odds on individual drivers that you can place.

 

So by allowing someone to intentionally overtake. Isn't that somewhat similar to match fixing?

 

Sorry I am ignorant gambling. Is there such odds you can place on a particular striker scoring a goal or a certain number of goals?

 

 

 

[Pyramid_sg]

As much as I respect Alonso for his driving, I think Felipe Massa was robbed of the race because he had to follow orders. He should have won the race.

[Raycsk]

If Alonso had not been able to pass Massa, he might probably had a hard time defending his 2nd place from Vettel. For the fact that Massa was slower, it jeopardizes Alonso race as he needs to make sure Vettle doesn't pass him nor he collide with Massa. So it might not have been a 18+25 and 25+18 issue anymore.

 

It also proves that Massa was comfortably matching Vettel and holding him at 3rd place and Alonso also proved that he was faster for doing a consecutive fastest lap towards the end of the race although Vettel overwrites it in the last lap.

 

Last but not least, I think to prevent the Vettel & Webber incident was priority for the team i guess....

 

 

No offense bro.

 

If Masa was slower than Alonso but yet could match the pace ot Vettel even he conceded first place t Alonso, wouldn't that imply that Alonso would have no problems holding back Vettel?

 

Afterall Vettel was some long way away but was closing fast. The back markers would have resulted in Vettel no being able to catch Alonso in the first place.

 

 

[Raycsk]

You do mean Santander, do you? :)

 

 

Sadly applies to the almost every team. Even a small newbie outfit had to vacate the seat of a former GP2 Asian racer cause another Asian brought along more Sponsorhip $$$.

 

Sports today is a Business that has eroded the very principle of the Spirit of Competition.

 

 

 

[Kac]

No offense bro.

 

If Masa was slower than Alonso but yet could match the pace ot Vettel even he conceded first place t Alonso, wouldn't that imply that Alonso would have no problems holding back Vettel?

 

Afterall Vettel was some long way away but was closing fast. The back markers would have resulted in Vettel no being able to catch Alonso in the first place.

 

That's how I see it as well, but you have put it in a way better than I would have placed it

[Raycsk]

That's how I see it as well, but you have put it in a way better than I would have placed it

[Dojon]

No offense bro.

 

If Masa was slower than Alonso but yet could match the pace ot Vettel even he conceded first place t Alonso, wouldn't that imply that Alonso would have no problems holding back Vettel?

 

Afterall Vettel was some long way away but was closing fast. The back markers would have resulted in Vettel no being able to catch Alonso in the first place.

 

Well from my experience in watching F1, when you are faster just slightly than the car in front of you and when it is difficult to pass because of the circuit you are actually not running at the comfortable pace which means you have to keep controlling the car to be safe perhaps bake earlier than usual or if he maneuvers trying to overtake giving Vettel a chance to overtake both . The latter was the case for Alonso just before the so called "team order" was issued. Like i said in the previous post, it would be difficult for Alonso to focus to overtake and keep Vettel behind to run at a pace he should which would probably jeopardize the team's result.

 

I think the team assess the situation that Alonso will eventually overtake Massa and therefore zero the chances of mistakes during the competitive overtaking to be best solution to secure the team's result.

 

I think it would be unfair to Massa if he was the faster car and yet they order him to let Alonso pass but certainly it wasn't. I think team order was clearer when Rubens let Schumi cross the finishing line that season.

[Jchuacl]

In Lap 21, Alonso is already throwing his toys out from the pram by screaming "This is ridiculous!!", which probably led to the instructions to give way.

If you look at the race, Massa drove a fantastic first stint but somehow his second stint on hard tyres suffered.

 

I'm pretty sure if Kimi is driving, he would just get the job done without throwing tantrums like this. Rem when he was fighting for the championship in Brazil, he pushed very hard for couple of laps and passed Massa after the pitstops. This is what the viewers want to see, ie real racing action, not some big baby crying.

 

 

If you look at the Mika/David partnership in the 1990s, the drivers let each other pass each other based on gentlemen's agreement, no need for Ron Dennis to speak over the radio. They were probably the best partnership I've seen at F1 with mutual understanding of each other.

 

 

actually i agree for Alonso to pass Massa, Alonso was faster so he should go through rather than fighting eachother and end up like Vettel and Webber collision.

 

[Raycsk]

Well from my experience in watching F1, when you are faster just slightly than the car in front of you and when it is difficult to pass because of the circuit you are actually not running at the comfortable pace which means you have to keep controlling the car to be safe perhaps bake earlier than usual or if he maneuvers trying to overtake giving Vettel a chance to overtake both . The latter was the case for Alonso just before the so called "team order" was issued. Like i said in the previous post, it would be difficult for Alonso to focus to overtake and keep Vettel behind to run at a pace he should which would probably jeopardize the team's result.

 

I think the team assess the situation that Alonso will eventually overtake Massa and therefore zero the chances of mistakes during the competitive overtaking to be best solution to secure the team's result.

 

I think it would be unfair to Massa if he was the faster car and yet they order him to let Alonso pass but certainly it wasn't. I think team order was clearer when Rubens let Schumi cross the finishing line that season.

 

Sorry but I is have a different opinion with regards to your comments.

 

The technology and competitiveness of F1 today mean that even at 1/100th of a second would mean the difference between pole and 8th.

 

Taking into conderation the many other variables such as tyre temp, personal setup and the fact that the track temp and conditipns do change, drivers ought to adapt their driving styles with such gradual changes. Drive hard for 1-3 laps would mean that you probably have to ease off for a lap or two for the tyres to get back to their optimum grip and performance.

 

So the ability to overtake is way much harder thanks to the overdependance on aerodynamics. Which is why since last year cars have this large front wings with this seemingly lame excuse of a rear wing.

 

The ban on refuelling this year has made drivers to rethink more strategically, when to push and when to conserve fuel. Take the example of Jenson, a driver who paces himself and nurse the fuel for the first half then push harder towards the end. All the other front runners just go all out then take it as it comes in the later stages.

 

So the driver ought to strategise wisely, plan his attack and of course intimidate the driver infront to overdrive his car so that his tyres lose their optimum performance. More importantly know which sector the driver infront is prone to making a mistake and positioning yourself to induce that mistake. That is motor racing.

 

IMHO, if you want to get ahead even its your team mate, then RACE.

 

[Dojon]

IMHO, if you want to get ahead even its your team mate, then RACE.

 

I would have agreed to this if each driver was racing for themselves. Well you had said it, a team mate, so it was absolutely necessary to protect the team's interest by preventing a team mate collision while trying to pass each other when the trailing driver had a faster car. If after letting Alonso passed and Massa proved that his car was quicker than I'd guess they might tell Alonso the same thing.

 

[Kac]

I would have agreed to this if each driver was racing for themselves.

 

That is the whole point of the WDC isn't it? Why not just scrap the WDC and award the WCC trophy come December in Monte Carlo instead? Drivers race for their teams and do what is best for their team it doesn't mean that should mean they should get shafted just so that their team-mate can benefit when they are in contention themselves...So, Massa will have to cede position to Alonso for all the races in the remainder of this calendar if he happens to be in front?

 

Well you had said it, a team mate, so it was absolutely necessary to protect the team's interest by preventing a team mate collision while trying to pass each other when the trailing driver had a faster car.

 

If Alonso was that fast, why didn't he manage to get pass Massa for the last 40 odd laps? If you can't get pass your team mate, I don't see why you deserve more points just because your laptimes are faster..

 

If after letting Alonso passed and Massa proved that his car was quicker than I'd guess they might tell Alonso the same thing.

 

Seriously?