As I get older, I learnt that LKY had to do what is needed

[Joseph22]

Lv3338 you havent answer my question if you are willing to pay low to have a living standard of Indonesia.

Note that i am saying this because the amount that most first democratic world country are paying are actually more than us.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Joseph22

[Joseph22]

  On 11/20/2009 at 10:17 AM, Rainmaker said:

lol.. how old are u now? singapore's natural location and predominance racial ratio already make things thing easy for the old man.

 

due respect to him, but if its wasnt him, others will probably do the same. how things turn out we dont know, could be better could be worse, i am sure there are people who are so fed with them that they are willing to take a chance if they can

 

for me, i simply dont care, i am a "quitter" who is a winner overseas because i took risk then come back after i won. one man's meat is another's poison, singapore current system is really a poison for me because i feel no matter how good talented a normally singaporean, he/she will never have a fair go because we will never win again the elites and the expatriates, i rather live as a second class citizen with a chance of fair play then as a third class citizen who basically work for the country, sucked dry and as cheap labours to defend the visitors.

 

this is only my sentiments, i am not an elite, i grow up in kampong until i go primary shcool then neighbourhood high school, with average results, speak hokkien and canton growing up.

i agree. but then again, ppl who the FT who came to singapore to work will be saying the same thing to their ppl at their nation.

 

Let face it. The top 5% of all nation remain in the country. The next 10~15% will go oversea to work or migrate. The remainding 80~85% like us will suffer back in singapore in the current Gahmen policy.

[CH_CO]

Thats something called HDB in which many are suckered into buying

[Chengtl]

There's no denying that LKY and the old guards were the heroes that rescued us up from the slums and transformed Singapore into a First World nation. I believe many Singaporeans would have known that we've heroes like Goh Keng Swee, Toh Chin Chye, Rajaratnam, Lim Kim San etc working tirelessly and selflessly behind the scenes. But there can only be one leader and that leader is LKY.To me they are all heroes. Many would have given up hope when we separated from Malaysia. We've got no natural resource and we were always under the threat of Malaysia who acted like a big bully during those days. But these old guards never gave up. They strived on, they provided our parents and grandparents with jobs, they built flats at record-breaking time, they created a sound education system and most importantly, they emphasised on racial harmony.

 

We MUST be thankful for this group of exceptional people and we MUST be thankful for LKY's leadership during the difficult times. We owe our peace, progress and prosperity to these guys. Yes, I may not agree with some of his policies but most of the time, the old man got it right. With the exception of water, I'm grateful that we DO NOT have to depend on our hinterland - Malaysia. I'm thankful that we did not become a puppet nation under the beck and call of Malaysia. Look around us, are we starving? Are we jobless? Do we stay in slums? Look at our pampered babies and kids nowadays then compare with those from other countries. Aren't we a fortunate lot? Before we become complacent, always remember that we're just a small VULNERABLE dot on the world map. We were never meant to be a nation but we did and we surpassed all expectations.

 

As for the "Tun"'s letter, I totally agree with the content. There are many talents in Malaysia but too bad they have a 3rd rate govt. With the NEP, the country will never progress as the beneficiaries will always depend on handouts instead of working hard. For the non-beneficiaries, they will work harder in order to survive. So actually the NEP strives to weaken the beneficiaries and strengthen the non-beneficiaries which is in contrast to the original objectives. It's a joke of a policy but then it's up to them to save themselves. I dun see it coming in this generation or next. In fact, it may never come as removing the NEP would mean giving up "power" - there is just too much to lose. It will take a group of people of the utmost upright integrity to do that, which to me is close to mission impossible.

[City100a]

  On 11/20/2009 at 11:56 AM, Chengtl said:

There's no denying that LKY and the old guards were the heroes that rescued us up from the slums and transformed Singapore into a First World nation. I believe many Singaporeans would have known that we've heroes like Goh Keng Swee, Toh Chin Chye, Rajaratnam, Lim Kim San etc working tirelessly and selflessly behind the scenes. But there can only be one leader and that leader is LKY.To me they are all heroes. Many would have given up hope when we separated from Malaysia. We've got no natural resource and we were always under the threat of Malaysia who acted like a big bully during those days. But these old guards never gave up. They strived on, they provided our parents and grandparents with jobs, they built flats at record-breaking time, they created a sound education system and most importantly, they emphasised on racial harmony.

 

We MUST be thankful for this group of exceptional people and we MUST be thankful for LKY's leadership during the difficult times. We owe our peace, progress and prosperity to these guys. Yes, I may not agree with some of his policies but most of the time, the old man got it right. With the exception of water, I'm grateful that we DO NOT have to depend on our hinterland - Malaysia. I'm thankful that we did not become a puppet nation under the beck and call of Malaysia. Look around us, are we starving? Are we jobless? Do we stay in slums? Look at our pampered babies and kids nowadays then compare with those from other countries. Aren't we a fortunate lot? Before we become complacent, always remember that we're just a small VULNERABLE dot on the world map. We were never meant to be a nation but we did and we surpassed all expectations.

 

As for the "Tun"'s letter, I totally agree with the content. There are many talents in Malaysia but too bad they have a 3rd rate govt. With the NEP, the country will never progress as the beneficiaries will always depend on handouts instead of working hard. For the non-beneficiaries, they will work harder in order to survive. So actually the NEP strives to weaken the beneficiaries and strengthen the non-beneficiaries which is in contrast to the original objectives. It's a joke of a policy but then it's up to them to save themselves. I dun see it coming in this generation or next. In fact, it may never come as removing the NEP would mean giving up "power" - there is just too much to lose. It will take a group of people of the utmost upright integrity to do that, which to me is close to mission impossible.

 

do you think ANwar holds the key

[Chengtl]

  On 11/20/2009 at 12:09 PM, City100a said:

do you think ANwar holds the key

 

I'm not sure about Anwar. Somehow he gives me an uncomfortable feeling and that has nothing to do with his sodomy allegations (cos I believe it's all crap). One thing is for sure though, the post-Mahathir govt has been good to Singapore. The current one so far so good. So actually I dun care how dirty their politics is as long as they do not affect their causeway neighbour. They can jolly well destroy each other, shoot ridiculous allegations at each other but at the end of the day, their economy will continue to suffer and no progress will be made.

[City100a]

  On 11/20/2009 at 1:58 PM, Chengtl said:

I'm not sure about Anwar. Somehow he gives me an uncomfortable feeling and that has nothing to do with his sodomy allegations (cos I believe it's all crap). One thing is for sure though, the post-Mahathir govt has been good to Singapore. The current one so far so good. So actually I dun care how dirty their politics is as long as they do not affect their causeway neighbour. They can jolly well destroy each other, shoot ridiculous allegations at each other but at the end of the day, their economy will continue to suffer and no progress will be made.

just as in malaysia there is a lack of credible opposition

 

[City100a]

  On 11/20/2009 at 11:41 AM, CH_CO said:

Thats something called HDB in which many are suckered into buying

there is no choice until now when some private condos are cheaper than HDB flats

[City100a]

  On 11/20/2009 at 10:22 AM, Joseph22 said:

i agree. but then again, ppl who the FT who came to singapore to work will be saying the same thing to their ppl at their nation.

 

Let face it. The top 5% of all nation remain in the country. The next 10~15% will go oversea to work or migrate. The remainding 80~85% like us will suffer back in singapore in the current Gahmen policy.

how did you come up the %

have we ever though of how other people felt about us when we become pr in australia, hong kong etc

they may think of us like we think of FTs here

on the other hand, i dont see much of these kind of resentment in their forums

[City100a]

  On 11/20/2009 at 10:19 AM, Joseph22 said:

Lv3338 you havent answer my question if you are willing to pay low to have a living standard of Indonesia.

Note that i am saying this because the amount that most first democratic world country are paying are actually more than us.

i have met several expat living in Bali

the cost of living is really low

with no skills, may of the expat have built a life for themselves there

that i think is the difference

the west are willing to move out of their comfort zone

[relacker]

  On 11/20/2009 at 8:27 AM, Joseph22 said:

sorry forgot to add.

 

Singapore is still not ready for pure democracy cause in actual fact, because of our fast raising economic to developed country.( in 1 generation) the social Gap and Educational gap are still not close enough. in fact, it is due to our fast raising economic status that is why the income gap between the rich and the poor is getting bigger.

 

IMHO, currently the only way to bridge the Income gap is for most of our children to study hard and get a good diploma or degree so as to have a reasonable high starting salary and try to work something out.

 

 

dun have such singapore - centric vies of the world, other nations like korea, japan, even south americans rise even faster lor but they have democracy

[City100a]

  On 11/20/2009 at 3:10 PM, relacker said:

dun have such singapore - centric vies of the world, other nations like korea, japan, even south americans rise even faster lor but they have democracy

i believe we need a generation of entrepneurs

our education is too restrictive, we are just basically good at memory work

 

[Silver_blade]

While I find the current system to be repressive...I don't think out society in general, can cope with western-style, full-blown democracy. But I feel a good start would be to make civil service (especially the election dept), stat boards, etc...to be really independent....free from any political-motivated influences. At the moment, I have the impression that it is very much ruling-party bias. An example would be the HDB....ruling party wards get lift upgrading priority over opp. ones.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Silver_blade

[Atonchia]

I sympathise those who were imprisoned without trial for so long, just because their idealogy is fundamentally different from that of the one who holds the power.

 

Given the situation, any victor will want to vanquish the most potent opponent, to consolidate power and remain in top position, totalitarian type of power.

LKY would have thought that if he should lose power and socialist/communist come to power , the ISA similar type of law might be invoke onto him and his team as they would pose the biggest to destabalise those in power.

Likewise, being a man who make his moves very carefully, he would not want the threat of communist to arise and destablise the country (that was mentioned).

 

What we do not know is what was real motive to round up these communist threats, was it really for the country or was it for personal agenda or factors of both, but how much is personal, we will not know.

 

I have respect for this man who able to lead his team to consolidate their control of the system and yield absolute power. He did what he need to do.

I am an X generation, so I'm not really able to fully understand what the general sentiment of the society then. Perhaps at a time of turmoil everyone was looking for a great man to can persuade many to trust and believe that his team is able to lead SG out of poverty and provide them what they yearn for, happiness prosperity and progress.

 

But the current generation of leaders seems totally cut off from the ground level people. They seemed aloof to common man on streets. Policies made are fo the needs or rather the 'survival' of the society as a whole and we were told that if SG fail to impose certain policies, SG would definitely fail in the next generation.

 

The crux is, there are some who have fallen behind the pace of development due to age or lack of the right training. Many are not getting any help. Some help are offered, but a huge portion of those do not know how to get help those who knew were put off by procedural process in place.

 

But how do we define happiness? What will make a common citizen happy? Prosperity of the nation - but not getting any portion of the pie. Progress as a whole but individually many are not able to move forward due to constraints caused by certain policies?

 

Those who know what they want were told off by others that one should not go against the flow; no one else should cross the line. Thus many dare not voice out the real intention. Some were told off that some of the 'wants' are too myopic, too individualistic.

 

There are just too many big pictures and big stories, common people only want to see, hear and feel what matters to them most. What are the things that affect their everyday life.

 

We shouldn't be too judgmental to others opinions, we shouldn't always advise others to follow the big picture which can be so big when one cannot see oneself, so when common people ask for something closer to heart, we should not jump in and say that's self-centered and will not contribute to nation building.

 

I believe that many in SG are simply too tired to always hear the same stories told repeatedly, those who want changes will want to see it happen.

But will the opportunities be created? Will there be capable leaders with the right aptitude to grab the opportunity arise.

 

Will those who are so comfortable in the 'boat' want the 'boat' to rock? Or will the 'boat' really rock when there is a change of skipper?

Does the old skipper really have the wisdom to foretell the weather condition a week later or is it just fear that exists in the mind of passengers that a new skipper will only sink the boat? If the boat will sink, then it's the fault of the old boatmaker.

 

If a new skipper is aboveboard and trustworthy, willing share information of the direction and pace of the voyage, should the boat sail into troubled waters, many passengers may even volunteer to help when the need arise.

 

Then main reason of the high pay, and no-change of skipper is because this is a cruise ship, too many foreign tourist picked up along the different destinations that were steered by the skipper. After they enjoyed the trip, they look forward to disembark from where they board. As for the staff and workers, they only follow instructions and orders to set sail and main existence is to serve the skipper, the management team and their customers that bring in the bucks. They were told that should the skipper be incapacitated, the cruise ship will still sail safely due to multi-talented team. Then there autopilot in place and the failsafe system with two other backup system running discreetly should the main system fail. It's called redundancy system requested to be inbuilt by the old shipowner.

 

So no need to change a new skipper. Staff and workers were also told that the job is very very difficult and so scary that no one else dare learn to take the helm. Everyone say better stay status quo even if not happy with the management team, not happy jump ship because only shareholders can vote during AGM. Other stakeholders only can watch and listen.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Atonchia

[City100a]

  On 11/20/2009 at 4:41 PM, Atonchia said:

I sympathise those who were imprisoned without trial for so long, just because their idealogy is fundamentally different from that of the one who holds the power.

 

Given the situation, any victor will want to vanquish the most potent opponent, to consolidate power and remain in top position, totalitarian type of power.

LKY would have thought that if he should lose power and socialist/communist come to power , the ISA similar type of law might be invoke onto him and his team as they would pose the biggest to destabalise those in power.

Likewise, being a man who make his moves very carefully, he would not want the threat of communist to arise and destablise the country (that was mentioned).

 

What we do not know is what was real motive to round up these communist threats, was it really for the country or was it for personal agenda or factors of both, but how much is personal, we will not know.

 

I have respect for this man who able to lead his team to consolidate their control of the system and yield absolute power. He did what he need to do.

I am an X generation, so I'm not really able to fully understand what the general sentiment of the society then. Perhaps at a time of turmoil everyone was looking for a great man to can persuade many to trust and believe that his team is able to lead SG out of poverty and provide them what they yearn for, happiness prosperity and progress.

 

But the current generation of leaders seems totally cut off from the ground level people. They seemed aloof to common man on streets. Policies made are fo the needs or rather the 'survival' of the society as a whole and we were told that if SG fail to impose certain policies, SG would definitely fail in the next generation.

 

The crux is, there are some who have fallen behind the pace of development due to age or lack of the right training. Many are not getting any help. Some help are offered, but a huge portion of those do not know how to get help those who knew were put off by procedural process in place.

 

But how do we define happiness? What will make a common citizen happy? Prosperity of the nation - but not getting any portion of the pie. Progress as a whole but individually many are not able to move forward due to constraints caused by certain policies?

 

Those who know what they want were told off by others that one should not go against the flow; no one else should cross the line. Thus many dare not voice out the real intention. Some were told off that some of the 'wants' are too myopic, too individualistic.

 

There are just too many big pictures and big stories, common people only want to see, hear and feel what matters to them most. What are the things that affect their everyday life.

 

We shouldn't be too judgmental to others opinions, we shouldn't always advise others to follow the big picture which can be so big when one cannot see oneself, so when common people ask for something closer to heart, we should not jump in and say that's self-centered and will not contribute to nation building.

 

I believe that many in SG are simply too tired to always hear the same stories told repeatedly, those who want changes will want to see it happen.

But will the opportunities be created? Will there be capable leaders with the right aptitude to grab the opportunity arise.

 

Will those who are so comfortable in the 'boat' want the 'boat' to rock? Or will the 'boat' really rock when there is a change of skipper?

Does the old skipper really have the wisdom to foretell the weather condition a week later or is it just fear that exists in the mind of passengers that a new skipper will only sink the boat? If the boat will sink, then it's the fault of the old boatmaker.

 

If a new skipper is aboveboard and trustworthy, willing share information of the direction and pace of the voyage, should the boat sail into troubled waters, many passengers may even volunteer to help when the need arise.

 

Then main reason of the high pay, and no-change of skipper is because this is a cruise ship, too many foreign tourist picked up along the different destinations that were steered by the skipper. After they enjoyed the trip, they look forward to disembark from where they board. As for the staff and workers, they only follow instructions and orders to set sail and main existence is to serve the skipper, the management team and their customers that bring in the bucks. They were told that should the skipper be incapacitated, the cruise ship will still sail safely due to multi-talented team. Then there autopilot in place and the failsafe system with two other backup system running discreetly should the main system fail. It's called redundancy system requested to be inbuilt by the old shipowner.

 

So no need to change a new skipper. Staff and workers were also told that the job is very very difficult and so scary that no one else dare learn to take the helm. Everyone say better stay status quo even if not happy with the management team, not happy jump ship because only shareholders can vote during AGM. Other stakeholders only can watch and listen.

 

 

very good write

many thanks

wonderful to read such a well written post

 

[Joseph22]

  On 11/20/2009 at 2:19 PM, City100a said:

how did you come up the %

have we ever though of how other people felt about us when we become pr in australia, hong kong etc

they may think of us like we think of FTs here

on the other hand, i dont see much of these kind of resentment in their forums

 

the number is just my rough guide. The main different is this, their country is big they can afford to let their talent slip to other country to work unlike simgapore. Another thing is their citizen will always go back to their country and live unlike ours.

 

Do you ready think they have no resentment? Talk to your friend who work oversea, they will tell you that their common ppl are ready to bit if you don't perform better than them. The one thing that they are better than us is this.

[Joseph22]

  On 11/20/2009 at 3:24 PM, Silver_blade said:

While I find the current system to be repressive...I don't think out society in general, can cope with western-style, full-blown democracy. But I feel a good start would be to make civil service (especially the election dept), stat boards, etc...to be really independent....free from any political-motivated influences. At the moment, I have the impression that it is very much ruling-party bias. An example would be the HDB....ruling party wards get lift upgrading priority over opp. ones.

Actually even full blown democracy will do the same thing as what pap is doing with hdb. America is a very good example.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Joseph22

[Joseph22]

  On 11/20/2009 at 3:10 PM, relacker said:

dun have such singapore - centric vies of the world, other nations like korea, japan, even south americans rise even faster lor but they have democracy

so is their income gap. Do you know that a common Korean living outbid city area are still very poor. So poor that they cannot afford meat everyday?

In fact the income gap is wider in these country.

Note that inam talking about income gap in the post you quote and not talking about economic growth of a nation.

Edited November 21, 2009 by Joseph22