Stop dreaming! HHO does not work

[Genie47]

Firstly, some chemistry should you all forget everything from school. Those who have not been to school, I'm your teacher today. Learn.

 

Water is made of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. Hence H2O.

 

They way they are covalently bonded is in an angle. The H are 60 deg between them and 300 deg on the other. This bond is very stable. Nothng can break it easily. Passing an electric current will not even break them apart.

 

Why is it so difficult? What is so stable cannot be made unstable easily. All these three atoms forming the water molecule is very stable electrically. An equilibrium state that is unmatched for a common substance. The electrons from hydrogen allow the oxygen to be more or less neutral. Electrons on the hydrogen travel so fast around it that it also makes the hydrogen more or less neutral as well.

 

The net effect is a tiny "delta" charge. Oxygen has a tiny delta negative and the hydrogens have a tiny delta positive. This by itself also lends stability to water. A water molecule forms "loose" hydrogen bonds (electron induced attraction forces) with another water molecule. The delta negative from oxygen attracting to the delta positive of the hydrogen. BTW, it is the hydrogen that is donating its charge to the oxygen.

 

So there is a 3 dimensional charge network in liquid water. This is stronger when you freeze water and this attraction charge pulls them all together which makes ice very hard.

 

This charge difference also makes water a solvent. These delta charges enables it to "dissolve" salt which is NaCl. Water pulls these apart using its delta charges to dissolve ionic substance.

 

So you cannot separate water to its individual components for combustion. HHO is basically water vapor. You are actually doing water injection into cars. To separate water into its atomic components of hydrogen and water, you need electrolysis. Then hydrogen combustion is fraught with a lot of engineering problems as well for gasoline powered ICE. Not a problem for diesel ICE.

 

Why? Diesel burns very slow. Ignited by detonation of air/fuel.

 

It is precisely this problem that makes it a good candidate for hydrogen or propane injection. Now there is even CNG injection. That is why diesel ICE can go for dual fuel systems and opposed to bifuel for gasoline ICE.

 

In dual fuel mode with hydrogen, propane or CNG, the burn is faster, harder and you get more power and better fuel economy.

 

Gasoline ICE is different. We don't want fast. We want slow. Detonation is good for diesel but bad for gasoline. Remember, high octane fuel burns slow.

 

You add hydrogen to gasoline and you make it quicker......badaboom! Back in the 80s, there was a hydrogen as ICE fuel documentary. The engineers got a huge problem and they have to solve it with water injectionn to eliminate the knocking. Yes, the same method used by methanol racers and even the siao turbo enthusiasts today.

 

In short all you peole here. Don't do what you don't understand. Concluding:

 

1. Water as a fuel is a scam because HHO is basically water vapor. You are just doing water injection.

 

2. To separate water to hydrogen and oxygen gas, you need electrolysis. Lots of pressure, power, everything. If you see videos of HHO systems, you will see there is no connection to the battery. Scam!

 

3. To use hydrogen as a combustive fuel runs counter to everything a gasoline ICE needs. If you have a diesel, great for you.

[Guyver]

Can you tell us other interesting chemistry facts?

 

So fun to read ....

[King]

deep stuff....

[Jasonjst]

Not everthing can be explain by Science , sometime Scientists , cannot explain God's creations.

I am wondering if Scientists belive that God do exist ?

 

Advanced Emission and Fuel Economy Concept Using Combined Injection of Gasoline and Hydrogen in SI Engines

Product Code: 2004-01-1270 Date Published: 2004-03-08

 

 

 

Author(s):

 

Thorsten Allgeier - Robert Bosch GmbH

Martin Helmut Klenk - Robert Bosch GmbH

Tilo Landenfeld - Robert Bosch GmbH

Enrico Conte - Swiss Federal Institute of Technology-Zurich

Konstantinos Boulouchos - Swiss Federal Institute of Technology-Zurich

Jan Czerwinski - HTI-Biel

 

Abstract

In order to meet future requirements for emission reduction and fuel economy a variety of concepts is available for gasoline engines. In the recent past new pathways have been found using alternative fuels and fuel combinations to establish cost-optimized solutions.

 

The presented concept for an SI engine consists of combined injection of gasoline and hydrogen. A hydrogen-enriched gas mixture is being injected additionally to gasoline into the engine manifold. The gas composition represents the output of an onboard gasoline reformer.

 

The simulations and measurements show substantial benefits to improve the combustion process resulting in reduced cold-start and warm-up emissions and optimized part-load operation. The replacement of gasoline by hydrogen-rich gas during engine start leads to zero hydrocarbons in the exhaust gas. The mixed fuel operation enables high EGR rates up to 50% or extended lean-burn limits resulting in reduced pumping losses and increased effective engine efficiency.

 

The set of measured data has been projected to the FTP driving cycle to allow a reasonable comparability to existing concepts with conventional exhaust gas aftertreatment. The compared data show promising results with a new system approach.

 

File Size: 1366K

Product Status: In Stock

 

Included in: SP-1864

 

See papers presented at SAE 2004 World Congress & Exhibition, March 2004, Detroit, MI, USA, Session: Advanced Catalysts & Systems (Part 1 of 3)

 

http://papers.sae.org/2004-01-1270/

 

 

[5936]

I have also ponder over HHO. So many You tube video on HHO projects.

They are not cheap. Dun know if they can produce enough HHO gas to feel the effect.

Or you'll need a fairly big "distillation tower" under your bonnet to make just enough HHO gas.

 

I always believe, if it work car manufacturer will put them in production line.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mini-itx]

Its a rather old thread but TS made a big error.... HHO is NOT water vapour....... IF you want to get H2O from HHO, you need to ignite the mixture.

 

 

Talking about this HHO. Yes, it does work. ITs not gimmick. However, its very difficult to produce enough HHO to drive the car.

[Mini-itx]

I have also ponder over HHO. So many You tube video on HHO projects.

They are not cheap. Dun know if they can produce enough HHO gas to feel the effect.

Or you'll need a fairly big "distillation tower" under your bonnet to make just enough HHO gas.

 

I always believe, if it work car manufacturer will put them in production line.

 

Hydrogen powered cars are already available.

[5936]

yes there are Hydrogen powered car. Are these also the fuel cell car?

 

HHO kit is different from hydrogen powered car.

HHO production is in Litres per min. but hydrogen gas is pumped from hydrogen refuel station.

[Yattokame]

Firstly, some chemistry should you all forget everything from school. Those who have not been to school, I'm your teacher today. Learn.

 

Water is made of 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. Hence H2O.

 

They way they are covalently bonded is in an angle. The H are 60 deg between them and 300 deg on the other

=> errrr..... going by VSEPR, the bond angle between the two H atoms should be 107.5 as the structure is 3D. It's not just a case of 60+300=360.

This bond is very stable. Nothng can break it easily. Passing an electric current will not even break them apart.

=> the O-H bond is breakable on its own and also by the effect of heat. in fact, 1 in every 10 million water molecule dissociate naturally at 25 deg. C. Passing an electric current DOES break them apart; although adding a little bit of acid helps in the conduction.

Why is it so difficult? What is so stable cannot be made unstable easily. All these three atoms forming the water molecule is very stable electrically. An equilibrium state that is unmatched for a common substance. The electrons from hydrogen allow the oxygen to be more or less neutral. Electrons on the hydrogen travel so fast around it that it also makes the hydrogen more or less neutral as well.

 

The net effect is a tiny "delta" charge. Oxygen has a tiny delta negative and the hydrogens have a tiny delta positive. This by itself also lends stability to water. A water molecule forms "loose" hydrogen bonds (electron induced attraction forces) with another water molecule. The delta negative from oxygen attracting to the delta positive of the hydrogen. BTW, it is the hydrogen that is donating its charge to the oxygen.

=> because oxygen is very electronegative.

So there is a 3 dimensional charge network in liquid water. This is stronger when you freeze water and this attraction charge pulls them all together which makes ice very hard.

=> open cage-like structure. melting ice makes it collapse like a building into rubble and hence it's volume decreases when it melts. Unusual.

This charge difference also makes water a solvent. These delta charges enables it to "dissolve" salt which is NaCl. Water pulls these apart using its delta charges to dissolve ionic substance.

 

So you cannot separate water to its individual components for combustion.

=> yup, you cannot combust water. It is already the combusted form of hydrogen.

HHO is basically water vapor. You are actually doing water injection into cars. To separate water into its atomic components of hydrogen and water, you need electrolysis.

=> you'll get the ions; then the molecules. No way to get atoms.

Then hydrogen combustion is fraught with a lot of engineering problems as well for gasoline powered ICE. Not a problem for diesel ICE.

 

Why? Diesel burns very slow. Ignited by detonation of air/fuel.

 

It is precisely this problem that makes it a good candidate for hydrogen or propane injection. Now there is even CNG injection. That is why diesel ICE can go for dual fuel systems and opposed to bifuel for gasoline ICE.

 

In dual fuel mode with hydrogen, propane or CNG, the burn is faster, harder and you get more power and better fuel economy.

 

Gasoline ICE is different. We don't want fast. We want slow. Detonation is good for diesel but bad for gasoline. Remember, high octane fuel burns slow.

 

You add hydrogen to gasoline and you make it quicker......badaboom! Back in the 80s, there was a hydrogen as ICE fuel documentary. The engineers got a huge problem and they have to solve it with water injectionn to eliminate the knocking. Yes, the same method used by methanol racers and even the siao turbo enthusiasts today.

 

In short all you peole here. Don't do what you don't understand. Concluding:

 

1. Water as a fuel is a scam because HHO is basically water vapor. You are just doing water injection.

=> I would believe it might be possible (well, that is the basics of science ya?). The sheer expansion of water vapour (or most gases) via vaporisation is the one of the basis of an explosion (heat evolved is the other). The difference is between combustion and boiling. The former is easier to harness/control.

2. To separate water to hydrogen and oxygen gas, you need electrolysis. Lots of pressure, power, everything. If you see videos of HHO systems, you will see there is no connection to the battery. Scam!

=> you don't actually need a lot of pressure. The amount of hydrogen or oxygen gas you can get depends on the current and time. And efficiency, of course.

3. To use hydrogen as a combustive fuel runs counter to everything a gasoline ICE needs. If you have a diesel, great for you.

 

[Yattokame]

yes there are Hydrogen powered car. Are these also the fuel cell car?

 

HHO kit is different from hydrogen powered car.

HHO production is in Litres per min. but hydrogen gas is pumped from hydrogen refuel station.

 

yes they are fuel-celled cars.

 

 

[Yattokame]

 

 

Very hard to believe H can have 2 bonds.

 

Can someone draw me the molecular orbitals of this awesome molecule?

Edited June 3, 2010 by Yattokame

[Yattokame]

Not everthing can be explain by Science , sometime Scientists , cannot explain God's creations.

I am wondering if Scientists belive that God do exist ?

 

Advanced Emission and Fuel Economy Concept Using Combined Injection of Gasoline and Hydrogen in SI Engines

Product Code: 2004-01-1270 Date Published: 2004-03-08

 

 

 

Author(s):

 

Thorsten Allgeier - Robert Bosch GmbH

Martin Helmut Klenk - Robert Bosch GmbH

Tilo Landenfeld - Robert Bosch GmbH

Enrico Conte - Swiss Federal Institute of Technology-Zurich

Konstantinos Boulouchos - Swiss Federal Institute of Technology-Zurich

Jan Czerwinski - HTI-Biel

 

Abstract

In order to meet future requirements for emission reduction and fuel economy a variety of concepts is available for gasoline engines. In the recent past new pathways have been found using alternative fuels and fuel combinations to establish cost-optimized solutions.

 

The presented concept for an SI engine consists of combined injection of gasoline and hydrogen. A hydrogen-enriched gas mixture is being injected additionally to gasoline into the engine manifold. The gas composition represents the output of an onboard gasoline reformer.

 

The simulations and measurements show substantial benefits to improve the combustion process resulting in reduced cold-start and warm-up emissions and optimized part-load operation. The replacement of gasoline by hydrogen-rich gas during engine start leads to zero hydrocarbons in the exhaust gas. The mixed fuel operation enables high EGR rates up to 50% or extended lean-burn limits resulting in reduced pumping losses and increased effective engine efficiency.

 

The set of measured data has been projected to the FTP driving cycle to allow a reasonable comparability to existing concepts with conventional exhaust gas aftertreatment. The compared data show promising results with a new system approach.

 

File Size: 1366K

Product Status: In Stock

 

Included in: SP-1864

 

See papers presented at SAE 2004 World Congress & Exhibition, March 2004, Detroit, MI, USA, Session: Advanced Catalysts & Systems (Part 1 of 3)

 

http://papers.sae.org/2004-01-1270/

 

The abstract simply suggests addition of hydrogen gas to supplement the combustion of fuel. Not exactly a breakthrough; more like data collation so car manufacturers can consider implementing this.

The advantages probably comes from the combustion of hydrogen, which is very exothermic.

 

What's so divine about it?

 

[Jasonjst]

I think the HHO comunity is not talking about generating HHO gas to take over gasoline ( doing so will need a very huge generator maybe bigger that your car engine ) . They are saying by mixing a small amount of HHO gas with the gasoline , we get a more efficent combustion , which result in a better mpg . Some claim up to 20% to 40% saving . Instead of spending $20/= getting some fuel additive , they are producing the fuel additive using simple HHO system that cost about few hundreds bucks only .

Work or not work ? Scientist say no , stupid layman say yes , I say I dont know . But anyway I have purchase a system from USA for my own experimnet . Will post result , after my experiment on my car.

Please dont shoot me , I may be just another stupid layman , kana con by these HHO seller .

Anyway here is quite a interesting link :-

http://current.com/news-and-politics/89072...rd-hauk-hho.htm

People who installed HHO claim that HHO gas actually help to burn your engine cleaner and cooler. Some claim that their engine oil remain clean after 2 months of runing .

Let me complete my experiment first and let you guys know after I try it .

Regard , and keep ideals flowing .........

Oh yes some scientist may also be stupid , that spend whole life in the lab and die a poor scientist , also got some poor layman make a simple geat discovery and turn millionaire !

Edited June 4, 2010 by Jasonjst

[Mini-itx]

Very hard to believe H can have 2 bonds.

 

Can someone draw me the molecular orbitals of this awesome molecule?

 

Hydrogen is single bond only. Its oxygen that has 2 bonds.

 

Btw, as I have mentioned previously. HHO is NOT 2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom.

 

Its 2 x H2 molecules and 1 x O2 molecule (thats what electrolysis of water produces).

 

This mixture mixed together to form so-called HHO or Brown's gas. Its sent mixed together with air and fuel and combust.

 

Btw, you don't need a big water tank and electrolysis to produce H2 and O2 (if you want to experiment). You just need H2 and O2 tank. Mix them using 2:1 ratio and sent it to the intake manifold.

[Mini-itx]

yes there are Hydrogen powered car. Are these also the fuel cell car?

 

HHO kit is different from hydrogen powered car.

HHO production is in Litres per min. but hydrogen gas is pumped from hydrogen refuel station.

 

Its not the same but its similar.

 

HHO is basically mixing 2 x H2 and 1 x O2 and combust them. Hydrogen is pump H2 directly into the engine. Since there is O2 in the air, you will still get H2 and O2 combustion.

 

 

[Mustank]

i tried on my truck before. end up use a lot more diesel than normal. haven't tried for one full tank, i stop experiment already

[Jasonjst]

Hmm .....

Layman discover that there is water and that it can be drink , etc .... Scientist then try to explain what is water , untill today they have yet to uncover the full mystery .

[Jasonjst]

The abstract simply suggests addition of hydrogen gas to supplement the combustion of fuel. Not exactly a breakthrough; more like data collation so car manufacturers can consider implementing this.

The advantages probably comes from the combustion of hydrogen, which is very exothermic.

 

What's so divine about it?

 

Hi ,

I am not saying that what these people discover is so divine . I am trying to say that HHO gas may be able to help a more efficient combustion , hence get some cost saving in petrol .

I only belive that only one person in this world is truly divine , our mighty God !

Regards.