Brake Kit at Stamford?

[Protege]

Wasting of money is for the person who spend it to decide. I personally find a its a great value for money.

 

Lets end the discussion here. Let the thread starter get some other comments!

[Elfenstar]

Your replies seem misleading in some way. At high speeds, and dry roads, the moment between e-braking and ABS coming in is significant.

 

 

Firstly, a bigger brake rotor will give you better cooling, which you mentioned, but it is not that critical in day to day driving. However, a bigger rotor coupled with the same caliper, but offset to the new rotor diameter will generate a larger braking torque. This improves the response of the brakes, causing the wheel to reduce rpm significantly faster than before, until ABS kicks in.

 

Except that in 90% of the cases, the brake bias is off leading to more forces acting on more often than not on the front which offsets this difference. So the only real advantage is that the better leverage means better inital bite, but once physics catches up 1ms later, the picture changes. Although there is higher brake torque at the front, the overall brake force used is usually lower due to the change in balance. Don't forget deceleration is the sum total of the amount of brake torque utilised at the four wheels. It isnt the amount of brake torque generated at the front wheels.

 

Secondly, BBKs normally come with larger brake calipers, increasing the surface area for kinetic energy to be converted to thermal energy. This again improves braking power, until ABS kicks in.

 

Bigger surface area does not mean more braking power. It only means that the pads would be able to stay cool/cooler for longer.

 

Thirdly, the increased number of pistons allows the driver to gauge the brake application more finely. a single big piston machined to the same shape as the brake pad helps to evenly apply contact with the rotor, but 6 smaller pistons, also machined to fit the pad like a jigsaw puzzle, will be able to do the same action, while giving the driver better control through pedal application, which is important in day to day driving and even more so on tracks.

 

This i agree is true. more pistons allow for a better feel and even reduced heat build-up(by nature of having more pressure points across the surface as opposed to a single point). However, what is the point in having better feel if it's going to take longer to stop?

 

[reply]Lastly, ABS is a function of tire grip, so without a good tire, abs will kick in earlier.

 

However, even on cars without good tires, good brakes have already slowed the car down faster at high speeds, compared to a car with good tires, with puny brakes which are unable to generate braking torque required to decelerate the wheels. [reply]

 

ABS is a function of grip, but the computer cannot tell for sure if theres grip or not. It bases its judgment on the change in speed according to ratios and tables in its program. It also has set programs for how long pressure should be released etc which are set using the figures from the OEM setup. Most BBK's ignore the pressure-torque and pressure-volume aspects which is the reason for lower braking performance when ABS comes on.

 

Just because any BBK gives you better feel and better inital bite does not mean it stops better. It only means it feels better. In the dry unless someone has gone over the top, IMHO there would be negligible differences in stopping. In the wet, thats where most would see that the lack of balance would translate into a longer braking distance, and if in an emergency with ABS on that would only worsen the situation.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying BBK's cannot help, but its not as simple as chucking on a "one size fits all" BBK and not adjusting and/or changing other braking components.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Nohnemwan]

Have anyone installed their brake kits at Stamford? Which branch was it done? Can share your experience and what to watch out for?

 

Thanks....

 

Q1: No.

Q2: Not applicable.

Q3: Let me share.

 

I have a BBK with AP CP-5555 calipers (6 pot) and a modest 343mm rotor. I have used them for >150,000km. So I probably have some experience to share, unlike some of the people who spoke out against BBK - they themselves most likely do not have BBKs on their car.

 

Of course, you don't need to know how to char kuay teow to tell if a plate of kuay teow is good or no good. But if you know how to char kuay teow then at least your observations about kuay teow are more credible.

 

OK, for a start, someone said that when changing pad, must change rotor. That is BS. My rotors are grooved, and I have gone through 2 1/2 sets of pads - first set I didn't like the feel, so changed halfway to EBC Green Stuff. Used finish (as in completely finished), then replaced with another set of Green Stuff. Rotor still original, grooves still there.

 

Fitting BBK is not because you need max braking all the time, everyday. If you track regularly, then it is a wise upgrade. For daily use, it is about the experience, of knowing that you will never run out of brake anytime. You will be surprised how quickly OEM brakes fade, eg on a fast run down the NSE north of the Ipoh tunnel section, down Genting or Camerons.

 

In the same way, people who buy Porsches / Ferraris / Jaguar XKRs etc don't buy it to max out the capabilities everyday they drive. It is for the experience.

 

The feel of a branded BBK is unforgettable. Once you get used to the exquisite controllability and power of these brakes, EVERY other OEM you try, no matter how expensive the car, will leave you with the impression - wah lau why their brake so farked up one.

 

For me, it's the best returns on the $5k of mods that I ever spent, in terms of driving pleasure.

 

And of course, when some idiot Skoda taxi or chow beng wants to challenge you by barging into a highway turnoff without forming up properly, then you know that you can bait him into entering the corner at way above his limits and watch him jam brake when panic sets in.

[Sturtles]

I agree. There are too many ignorant car owners who do not know what they need, and without the focus, they just follow by wading their cash.

[Vblaster_w211]

There are many BBK specifically designed for car models. These are usually well designed and balanced. Only thing is most are performance biased cars.

 

For family sedan types, there's really no need for extreme BBK. But a modest 4 pot on a FF will usually be beneficial and will not upset the braking bias to the extent of being detriment. In most cases, these 4-pots will significantly help in reducing stopping distance as the braking design is usually weighted 70/30 to the front anway. It also usually gives much better braking feel and less prone to fading after really hard driving.

 

From practical experience of own and friends.

 

So IMO, is BBK a waste of money? Not usually. In some models, I'll recommend it as one of the first mods. But make sure you do the research and design, and the installation. Also, get one that is balanced to your driving style/demands and the performance/make of the car.

Edited December 2, 2007 by Vblaster_w211

[Protege]

To me, I have read a lot of user reviews and therefore I am investing in the brake kit. To me, its a good investment. Anyway each has their own opinions.

 

Thanks for sharing the same sentiments as me bro!

[Sturtles]

To me, I have read a lot of user reviews and therefore I am investing in the brake kit. To me, its a good investment. Anyway each has their own opinions.

 

Thanks for sharing the same sentiments as me bro!

 

I type so much, and didn't get thanked

 

Must be that I didn't have the a car avatar, or the dog is worth much less than the upperclass saloons in your avatars

[Yc86]

Hi.. have 2 questions rgd brakes

 

1. Will changing to a different type of pad improve the initial 'bite'?

After changing to brake set taken from a different car, the bite now is soft and gradual, and the pedal throw is slightly longer as well. Don't know if it's a good or bad thing since my car has no ABS..

 

2. I've tried another car with project u 4 pot kit and the bite is so sudden n harsh.. pedal throw is also very little.

 

When u say throw off balance, do u mean the bias has been changed.. or the sudden 'bite' will mess up the weight distribution of the car? And how can the bias be changed anyway?

 

thanx

[Protege]

Sorry lah bro! Did not read your post!

[Protege]

I shall not answer your very technical questions. However, on the point of the Project Miu 4 pot having have sudden bite, it all depends on the BBK. Some manufacturers designed it to have very good initial bites while some make it modulated. Mine is modulated while some users of the VTTR Mini or big 6 pot have commented those are having very hard initial bite.

 

Hope the little info above help you!

[Elfenstar]

It can but has its limits. Look for a pad that has a higher coefficient of friction. Make sure its one that has it from 0 deg for street driving. Adjusting the pedal height can also help. How much pad was there on both sets of pads? Was anything else done?? The pedal height can go down a little as the pads and rotors wear, but the throw should not change unless the caliper or master cylinder was changed.

 

For bias have a read of this http://sports.racer.net/brake_bias.htm. As simple as it gets.

[Yc86]

Ohz.. thought of the VTTR mini 6pot before, was quoted ard 1.7k+ at Super Import Nights. Looks tempting..

 

Or i might just change the pad n maybe rotor..

[Yc86]

It's kinda ironic that i changed from stock to a 4pot from another brand car, and yet the feel is more gradual/soft or 'spongy' than the original. hw much pad left.. nt sure how to judge also. It can't be the brake hoses since i'm on s.s braided ones already.

 

Yes the caliper + rotor were changed but master cylinder remained. I was thinking if the 4pots were too big for the cylinder, since the same force is now pushing on a bigger area. Then how come cars can still fit a BBK and have a better bite?

 

Changing the master cylinder it is impossible due to space restrictions.

Its still drivable n works fine, as in it still gets the job of stopping the car done, but i'm worried it might not hold up for trackday.

[Elfenstar]

I have a BBK with AP CP-5555 calipers (6 pot) and a modest 343mm rotor. I have used them for >150,000km. So I probably have some experience to share, unlike some of the people who spoke out against BBK - they themselves most likely do not have BBKs on their car.

 

Were you referring to me? My BBK involved upgrading my master cylinder as well as the proportioning valve and i had a brake specialist adjust the bias.

 

OK, for a start, someone said that when changing pad, must change rotor. That is BS. My rotors are grooved, and I have gone through 2 1/2 sets of pads - first set I didn't like the feel, so changed halfway to EBC Green Stuff. Used finish (as in completely finished), then replaced with another set of Green Stuff. Rotor still original, grooves still there.

 

BS??? Slotted rotors are manufactured to close to min thickness so you can't machine them. Have a read of the instructions on your EBC Greenstuff, one of the requirements is either new rotors or machined rotors.

 

When you changed pads, did you check the run-out and thickness of the discs to ensure they were within safe tolerances??? Just because you did not do it and are fine does not mean it was safe. Does not wearing a safety helmet at a construction site and not getting hit mean you're safe??

 

Fitting BBK is not because you need max braking all the time, everyday. If you track regularly, then it is a wise upgrade. For daily use, it is about the experience, of knowing that you will never run out of brake anytime. You will be surprised how quickly OEM brakes fade, eg on a fast run down the NSE north of the Ipoh tunnel section, down Genting or Camerons.

 

BBK's always feel good even if not properly installed simply because of the extra leverage which leads to a better inital bite thanks to the bigger rotors. The extra pistons help with the feel, and they together with the larger surface area help with cooling. However at the end of it all even with all this, what is the point if its going to take longer for you to stop with an improperly upgraded brake system. Have a look at the link i placed in my reply to bro YC86 to understand the basics of brake bias.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Elfenstar]

So IMO, is BBK a waste of money? Not usually. In some models, I'll recommend it as one of the first mods. But make sure you do the research and design, and the installation. Also, get one that is balanced to your driving style/demands and the performance/make of the car.

 

This is the best advice anyone can give. I said its a waste earlier as your advice is unfortunately the exception rather than the norm for most people who install BBK's.

 

Actually this reminds me of a VTTR upgrade we did on an EK VtiR (a.k.a. SiR in sing) hatch. It was a free job as my partner is from Taiwan and someone from VTTR approached him to try the kit out when he was back there on hols.

This was an EK civic specific kit and it had a front and all wheel option. We decided to test it out. It wasn't very scientific (zham brake on the road at point A from 100kmh and measure where it came to a complete standstill). There was a 10ish meter increase in emergency stopping distance over stock (though with EBC green pads) with only the front changed, but there was a whopping 17ish meter improvement in distance over stock with all four changed (i.e. there was a 27m improvement from having the fronts upgraded to all four upgraded). In both cases the feel and initial bite over stock were much better, but the stopping distance on tells it all.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Elfenstar]

Its the caliper pressure settings. This can be different even for diff cars from the same manufacturer. There's nothing you can do except for changing the master cylinder if you want to keep the calipers.

 

Good car-specific kits do take this into consideration, and most aftermarket BBK's do have ratios in that more pressure is exerted for a given pedal movement. Thats also why they feel better. I'm guessing you're using an OEM 4pot???

 

Are you sure the master cylinder cannot be upgraded for your car as it involves removing the current one and replacing it with a different unit. If you're driving the swift gti as per your avatar, there should be heaps of options.

 

Edit: Btw, since you do not have ABS, it would be much easier! Also since you said you like VTTR, I would say go for them if they have a kit for your car. IMHO their calipers are pretty good.

Edited December 4, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Chiqinhan]

if budget of $1400 to around $1800. which brand of BBK will bros recommend???

 

cos i find brake indeed very useful, esp just after changing to ssbh can already feel better brakin feel. so upgrading to bbk definitely for mi, but budget also nt so high. haha...

 

bros here if u got any good brands n workshop to get them, pls pm mi or let mi know for the price range above, which brand is best or most value for money for performance, thks

[Devilmaycry]

Ohz.. thought of the VTTR mini 6pot before, was quoted ard 1.7k+ at Super Import Nights. Looks tempting..

 

Or i might just change the pad n maybe rotor..

 

Cool man, 6pot VTTR calipers at 1.7k not bad at all...well known brand in Taiwan!!!

 

Whoever is driving that Honda fit with K20A engine better have a good 4/6 pot BBK Gonna poke your ass one fine/rainy/sunny/stormy day on the road