Fiat Punto Arbath

[Ccssgm]

The pics like 4 doors.....

 

[Ivan96935sg]

chio man

[Cool_jazz]

yes.... not Over The Top.... nice, clean and classy

[Felipe]

seems like turbo is the way to go these days. even alfa is going turbo soon. wonder wat 'normal aspirated' has to say about this?

[Cool_jazz]

I honestly don't think FI is the way to go. It is a short-cut to get more power without doing any serious engineering work. I hope I don't get slammed for this..... but when the car company is unable to push out the same amount of torque and bhp from an NA engine like its competitor... it will go FI. Saab is one example and Merz with its Kompressor is another. Just my opinion.

 

Think about it. RS4 used to be FI.... not its NA. Even new AMGs are going NA. Ferrari is also NA. Even Mclaren F1 (which I rate highly, in fact I think its better than the overblown Veyron) is NA.

 

"McLaren insisted that the engine for this car be normally-aspirated to increase reliability and driver control. Turbochargers and superchargers increase power but they increase complexity and can decrease reliability as well as the ability of the driver to maintain maximum control of the engine."

[Elfenstar]

Oh it depends on the application.

 

For example, a WRC car will never be NA. Reason? Simple... weight. They will never be able to get these levels of power with a NA engine unless they go bigger, but by going bigger they will never be able to have the same levels of handling due to the additional weight. Now this might be acceptable for big cruising boats, but not for real performance motorsports.

 

Another thing to note is that in big displacement cars, the torque is much higher so its sufficient to pull the car up to speed (or it might be overkill with a turbo), but in smaller displacement cars it is a big issue (and the higher the power from the same enginem the worse this gets) and although not throughout the rev range, FI does wonders in this area. The Veyron is a prime example, its a whale of a car and needs the additional torque from FI to pull it up to speeds, either that or put a bigger engine in and make it into a bigger whale.

 

Another problem with NA is emissions control... with the rising emissions standards small displacement NA cars just can't cut it unless people are willing to accept a power reduction. This has lead to the rise of both small displacement FI cars and big displacement NA cars, but there is only so big they can go before emissions start going up again. Not to mention the the problem with NA is that the larger the displacement, the lesser the power that can be gained with each unit of displacement.

 

As for no serious engineering work??? You must be joking... Have a look at the RB26DETT, 2JZ, 3SGTE, 4G63, audi's BPY series TFSI engine, not to mention mazda's turbo rotaries. They would never pull the amounts of power on stock internals without at least equal levels of engineering. Also the 3SGTE and 4G63 make the engineering of honda's F20C look fairly ordinary, and in the 6 cylinder department the RB26 and 2JZ are as equally engineered as the M3's powerplant. The principles of pulling out power is the same be it NA or FI.

 

If you chuck on FI onto the same engine, it can pull more power than its NA counterpart ever will and that is fact!

 

Edit: I almost forgot to mention, the people behind Saab and merc's kompressor range did the right thing by using v.mild FI, the kept the drivability of the NA engines but increased both power and torque. I have no doubt they would have been able to achieve those figures in NA guise, but would lose drivability as well. Considering their target market, that wouldnt have been a wise thing to do.

Edited March 9, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Cool_jazz]

Your opening sentence is so right. It depends on the application.

 

NA vs FI.... advantages vs disadvantages..... this has been discussed around the world in numerous forums, on technical papers, etc. There are proposition and opposition for both types of engines. And we can probably present our cases till our faces turn blue yet there will be no conclusion.

 

As such, lets agree to disagree and be happy with that

[Relagsingh]

looks pretty neat...

[Cool_jazz]

yeah... I thought so too.... that's why I posted it here.

[Elfenstar]

Well... the only thing i tend to really disagree with you in is the "statement" that implies that FI is more crude than NA. And thats because its based on your opinion of the 2 rather than anything else.

 

Other than that, uses of each can be argued based on application.

 

Either way, the days of mass produced ICE hi-po cars are numbered... even now, either FI is being used more often or the capacity is going up due to emissions requirements, and that is just to maintain similar power and torque figures to what we're used to.

 

Just like the days of the small and cheap (relatively) genuine sports coupe is also limited. Everything from the silvia, to celica, to integra has been taken off the market due to lack of demand with only a select few remaining and costing more than their predecessors. All thats starting to be left are the bigger and/or the more expensive ones, and even then its still a pretty niche market.

[Cool_jazz]

And thats because its based on your opinion of the 2 rather than anything else.

 

I respect both just that certain applications they have makes me wonder.... but lets leave it at that and not dwell on it any longer.

 

Yes, I agree that capacity is going up for the reason as described. The saving grace is direct injection from the likes of Fiat Group, VAG, Toyota, etc. Direct Injection helps with torque, bhp and emission. Of course VAG went one step further and added FI (TFSI as mentioned by you earlier).

[Normal_aspirated]

yup, with strictor emission standards coming around the corner......resulting loss of horsies. Two directions to go........the cheaper way is to FI or expensive way is to upsize the engines. So small engine with FI is for the larger segment of the market. Like SG, cheaper taxes......my S$0.02.

Edited March 10, 2007 by Normal_aspirated

[Normal_aspirated]

Got some news fer another version of Punto Abarth from this webby......this time is a twin turbo lika Golf GT 1.4L Twin Turbo:

 

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/autoexpr...fiat_punto.html

 

It will return on a powerful new Grande Punto, inspired by the firm's Rally Super competition car. The most muscular model in the current line-up is the 130bhp Sporting, but its 1.9-litre Multijet diesel motor will be outgunned by the hot hatch.

 

According to our sources, the Abarth is expected to boast more than 200bhp thanks to a twin-turbo engine. That should guarantee a 0-60mph sprint of around 7.0 seconds - enough to compete with established rivals such as the Renaultsport Clio 197. The look of the newcomer will be heavily influenced by the rally car, which won this year's European Championship. Competition-style features include a roof-mounted air intake and a wider track for im-proved handling. Smart alloy wheels and a menacing black grille - the same as the one fitted to the 100bhp Panda - are also set to join dark-tinted projector-style headlamps. Along with a discreet rear spoiler and lower side skirts, they will set the sporty newcomer apart from the standard car.

 

Prices for the aggressive-looking model have yet to be confirmed, but expect the Abarth version to undercut its direct rivals - just like the rest of Fiat's supermini line-up. That should see the hot Grande Punto cost around

Edited March 10, 2007 by Normal_aspirated

[Elfenstar]

 

Yup what i love abt direct injection engines is mostly that the throttle is usually more resposive as well!

[Elfenstar]

Smaller engine = lesser weight so its cheaper in many other countries too though it affects the singapore and jap systems the most!

 

Oh btw the article you quoted was just early assumptions. The one that cool_jazz did is fiats offical release.

 

If you want i think i have pictures of both the actual WRC car and the street car somewhere in my comp.

 

Edit: here u go... wallpaper sized too

Edited March 10, 2007 by Elfenstar

[Normal_aspirated]

Cool. Is this Abarth version available in Down Under ?

[Elfenstar]

Nope, no news anyway, but since they're selling the full range bar the 1.2 i won't be surprised. Besides, it isnt in production as yet so well see how when that happens.

[Normal_aspirated]

got the specs from this webby:

 

http://www.abarth.it/home.asp?lan=eng&l=2&id=15

 

Engine

4 cylinders in a row, 4 valves per cylinder, 1368 cm3;

Power: 110 kW (150 hp CV) at 5500 rpm, increased to 155 hp with the use of petrol 98 RON;

Maximum torque 206 pound-feet at 2000 rpm - it can achieve as much as 230 pound-feet at 3000 rpm by activating the SPORT mode;