Component speakers, no amp?

[Mkl22]

It depends on how loud you want to drive your speakers.

 

If you are a heavy metal fan and want to drive your speakers to rock concert levels

 

then you should add an amp.

 

If you don't wish to blow your ear drum and not play at rock concert level then you

 

can do without the amp if its very efficient.

 

A Ferrari can do more than 200 kmh but if you drive at most 90 kmh do you need a

 

Ferrari?

 

How many Hertz speakers have you seen destroyed when played at normal level?

 

Lastly people play their cheapo speakers in their cars loudly and it didn't get destroyed

 

so if they change to good quality speakers and play it at the same level the good speakers

 

will be destroyed? So the cheapo speakers are better made?

Praised you earlier. But I continue to praise you more here!

 

Never try will never know. The amps in head units these days are not that crappy! The efficiency in electronics have grown by leaps and bounds.

 

Although I don’t design audio amps now. Have played with some during school and know enough.

 

All the large power is always lots of extra headroom. In a efficient speaker you won’t come close to the extra headroom. Measured power amps efficiency and loads before. Most of the time less than 10w is enough liao!

If a speaker needs 1w to produce that level of sound. It’s doesn’t matter if you hook up a 600w amp or a 3w amp!

 

Nothing special about power amps these days! It’s all about the chassis design and making things look nice to charge more

Edited August 24, 2018 by Mkl22

[Budgetice]

Really?! So we don't need to look at technical specs when buying speakers and amp? Just by feeling will be OK? That also means designers of amp and speakers can just forget about the electrical and electronic rules when designing and spec'cing their products, and maybe they should just do away with specs on their products.

 

I am not a self-proclaimed expert, just a laymen person who fortunate enough to attend high-school and learned Physics without falling asleep.

 

 

Unfortunately we are talking about in-car audio here, which uses semiconductors in amplification circuits, so don't throw what single end triode into the discussion.

 

 

Regarding the comment about "Try telling them to supply 125 rms to the hertz tweeter and see wat happens", (btw don't forget the unit of power, W, if want to act technical)

 

All I can say is, luckily we still have people who go to school and studied well, became designers and engineers at good sound companies, and they designed component systems that comes with crossovers with clear instructions to USE them together with tweeters, to help people who could be misled by inappropriate advice from the internet forum. Some mass market tweeters even come with wired crossover/filter to foolproof them. So the tweeters are saved.

 

 

I am just curious, if <2W is enough for application in in-car audio why hasn't the world adopted it and saved some serious money in the process? Yeah, MAYBE the companies are trying to squeeze more money from consumers by not using the low power solution.

 

 

Anyway, I don't think we are talking rocket science here, so it's up to fellow forumers who made more sense.

 

ciao!

Really?! So we don't need to look at technical specs when buying speakers and amp? Just by feeling will be OK? That also means designers of amp and speakers can just forget about the electrical and electronic rules when designing and spec'cing their products?

 

I am not a self-proclaimed expert, just a laymen person who fortunate enough to attend high-school and learned Physics without falling asleep.

 

Unfortunately we are talking about in-car audio here, which uses semiconductors in amplification circuits so that they can work with 12V/24V DC power, so don't throw what single end triode into the discussion.

 

Regarding the comment about "Try telling them to supply 125 rms to the hertz tweeter and see wat happens", (btw don't forget the unit of power lah if want to act technical)

 

All I can say is, luckily we still have people who go to school and studied well, became designers and engineers at good sound companies, and they designed component systems that comes with crossovers with clear instructions to USE them together with tweeters, to help people who could be misled by inappropriate advice from the internet forum. Some mass market tweeters even come with wired crossover/filter to foolproof them. So the tweeters are saved.

Lol ... ciao

[Jamesc]

Chill bro, lots of self proclaimed experts here using theory to justify stuff.. dont get so angry

 

Try telling them to supply 125 rms to the hertz tweeter and see wat happens.

 

You are right bro.

 

So many self proclaimed experts here that knows nuts.

 

The more they post just shows how little they know.

 

I hope they post more. 

 

[Jamesc]

Praised you earlier. But I continue to praise you more here!

 

Never try will never know. The amps in head units these days are not that crappy! The efficiency in electronics have grown by leaps and bounds.

 

Although I don’t design audio amps now. Have played with some during school and know enough.

 

All the large power is always lots of extra headroom. In a efficient speaker you won’t come close to the extra headroom. Measured power amps efficiency and loads before. Most of the time less than 10w is enough liao!

If a speaker needs 1w to produce that level of sound. It’s doesn’t matter if you hook up a 600w amp or a 3w amp!

 

Nothing special about power amps these days! It’s all about the chassis design and making things look nice to charge more

 

The reason for the improvement in head units amplification is many are now using digital amplifiers

inside. Digital chips inside are very efficient and run cool unlike analogy amp that waste a lot of

energy in the form of heat.

 

I myself have replaced my full size 25 kg analogue amp with a digital amp the size of 2 packs of cigarettes. The benefit of a digital amp is not only small, cheap, runs cool but the sounds is similar to valves. Not as good as valve amps and will never replace them but has a hint of valve amps in their sound.

 

Also the Hertz speaker is really efficient with a sensitivity of db SPL 92. I even posted the specs in my original post. The problem is not that people says specs are not important - no one here has said that. The problem is the self proclaimed expert does not understand what the specs mean.

 

Lastly the thing that destroys speakers is distortion and distortion can be heard very clearly. So if a person doesn't purposely drive his speakers into really high distortion he is not going to destroy his speakers.  

 

 

Listen to this

 

Hertz HSK 165

 

Sensitivity dB SPL 92

 

[Budgetice]

Thats why, need to chill.. too many paper experts..make scarastic remarks etc

 

Want to say ppl never go to sch etc then cannot take criticism themselves.. haiz wat to do..

 

Anyway, most importantly is u like what u hear ..

 

Heck, what do i know, i only pay to win trophies

[Jamesc]

Thats why, need to chill.. too many paper experts..make scarastic remarks etc

 

Want to say ppl never go to sch etc then cannot take criticism themselves.. haiz wat to do..

 

Anyway, most importantly is u like what u hear ..

 

Heck, what do i know, i only pay to win trophies

 

I should introduce him to my MIL.

 

They can both talk for hours and both also

 

don't know what they are talking about. 

 

[Budgetice]

I should introduce him to my MIL.

 

They can both talk for hours and both also

 

don't know what they are talking about.

 

Lol

[Jamesc]

 

I am just curious, if <2W is enough for application in in-car audio why hasn't the world adopted it and saved some serious money in the process? Yeah, MAYBE the companies are trying to squeeze more money from consumers by not using the low power solution.

 

 

When you say you are curious you are admitting you don't know.

If you were more humble and you didn't pretend you know everything and ask, people will tell you.

 

Its a very simple reason. At one point in time all speakers were very efficient and only needed a few watts.

 

Because of the invention of the chip the price of watts came down a lot. It was very cheap to make very cheap and powerful solid state amps. 

 

However there was one problem, Solid state amp were very cheap and very powerful but did not sound very good. So people had a choice they could switch back to valve amps which were not very powerful but sounded very good.

 

Or they could spend a lot of money and buy powerful solid state amps that sounded great but were very expensive. 

[Jamesc]

 

I am just curious, if <2W is enough for application in in-car audio why hasn't the world adopted it and saved some serious money in the process? Yeah, MAYBE the companies are trying to squeeze more money from consumers by not using the low power solution.

 

 

When the price of watts came down ispeakers manufacturers started to make inefficient speakers that needed a lot of watts but there are still a lot of manufacturers even today that make very efficient speakers that don't need a lot of watts.

 

The problem with using an amp is that the amp will introduce distortion to the sound. So with an amp you will get a louder sound but a worse sound.This is why people that want good sound and a lot of watts need to spend a lot of money to buy very expensive amps. 

 

There maybe people that buy $20,000 amps that cannot tell the difference with a $200 amp just to show off to their friends. If you know anyone like this I can send them to my friend that runs a hifi shop,However most people that spend big money on amps can tell the difference and only spend the money because it sounds good,

 

To cut a long story short. The reason the expensive amp sounds good is not the chip but good amps have very good power supplies and unfortunately good power supplies are very expensive.

 

But today we have digital amps that are small, runs cool and cheap and most importantly sounds good. Not as good as valves and will never replace them but have a hint of valves and have a lot less distortion.

 

Head units these days are switching to digital amps inside so they can drive very efficient speakers like the Hertz and drive them very well.

 

To put things into perspective some speakers are so efficient that a moderately powerful amp never goes past 8 o clock on the amp's volume dial and owner have the problem of controlling the sound.

 

Turn the dial a little bit more and the sound is too loud and turn a bit less and its too soft. 

 

The reason I know all this is I learn from people in forums. I don't tell them I know everything and they know nothing and insult them.

 

[Jamesc]

 

 

Today is the greatest opportunity of your life.

 

You can change your life by admitting you don't know everything 

 

and not everything you know is correct.

 

I don't know everything and I am sure not everything I know is correct.

 

When you have this humility and remove the great big ego in your path

 

you can learn so much more and become so much more knowledgeable.

 

You have nothing to lose doing this. Everyone that reads your post knows

 

you are all bluster and no information. You haven't fooled anyone but you can change.

 

You can post with great knowledge and if its good information even I will learn

 

from you. I am always happy to learn new ideas from anyone and everyone.

 

[jjandyy]

Today is the greatest opportunity of your life.

 

You can change your life by admitting you don't know everything 

 

and not everything you know is correct.

 

I don't know everything and I am sure not everything I know is correct.

 

When you have this humility and remove the great big ego in your path

 

you can learn so much more and become so much more knowledgeable.

 

You have nothing to lose doing this. Everyone that reads your post knows

 

you are all bluster and no information. You haven't fooled anyone but you can change.

 

You can post with great knowledge and if its good information even I will learn

 

from you. I am always happy to learn new ideas from anyone and everyone.

 

 

 

Whoah, the fact that you need to reply 3 times to make your points and painting negativity around me, looks like the insecurity is killing you isn't it? Maybe you should start to learn humility instead.

 

 

If my initial point of recommending to match the correct power requirement of speakers to the amp and vice versa, which all manufacturers are telling their customers to do, all audio experts (I mean the REAL ones) are also advocating, is INCORRECT, then I really do not know what is correct. What I was saying is as simple as, for example, follow the dosage of medicine recommended by doctors or manufacturers.

 

Of course there will always be people who like to act smart and say, yeah, we can take half the dosage and still have the same effect, and start to link experiences by auntie, uncle, friends, find some discrete evidence to support the points, etc. I will not debate on that further, everyone makes their own decisions.

 

 

Lastly, despite all your responses, they did not change science and physics. So, I suggest you spend time hanging around people with real knowledge about the science and physics of sound, instead of hanging around hifi shops. The last time I checked, there are also a lot of people hanging around coffeeshops everyday but they don't become better at knowing their coffee and the science behind it. All they know is the lingo like kopi-o kaw, kopi siu dai etc.

 

By the way, no need to find so hard for low power 1W, 1.6W examples to make your points lah. Here is ZERO Watt example for you, I mean electrical power in this case. 

 

 

 

 

Will be my last post on this topic, will not respond anymore. Bye.

[Jamesc]

Whoah, the fact that you need to reply 3 times to make your points and painting negativity around me, looks like the insecurity is killing you isn't it? Maybe you should start to learn humility instead.

 

 

If my initial point of recommending to match the correct power requirement of speakers to the amp and vice versa, which all manufacturers are telling their customers to do, all audio experts (I mean the REAL ones) are also advocating, is INCORRECT, then I really do not know what is correct. What I was saying is as simple as, for example, follow the dosage of medicine recommended by doctors or manufacturers.

 

Of course there will always be people who like to act smart and say, yeah, we can take half the dosage and still have the same effect, and start to link experiences by auntie, uncle, friends, find some discrete evidence to support the points, etc. I will not debate on that further, everyone makes their own decisions.

 

 

Lastly, despite all your responses, they did not change science and physics. So, I suggest you spend time hanging around people with real knowledge about the science and physics of sound, instead of hanging around hifi shops. The last time I checked, there are also a lot of people hanging around coffeeshops everyday but they don't become better at knowing their coffee and the science behind it. All they know is the lingo like kopi-o kaw, kopi siu dai etc.

 

By the way, no need to find so hard for low power 1W, 1.6W examples to make your points lah. Here is ZERO Watt example for you, I mean electrical power in this case. 

 

 

 

 

Will be my last post on this topic, will not respond anymore. Bye.

 

This is your last post as you have exhausted

 

what little knowledge you have on this subject

 

and you know it. Nothing you post was very

 

useful anyway. We will not miss you here. 

 

[Budgetice]

Everything also link to science and physics sounds so sad... match here match there.. u sure u like the sound when all the numbers are perfectly match??

 

Haiz.. think i dekit and change my setup to match using numbers.. will get someone more educated to go with me cause i never study much.. ☹️

[Hosaybo]

Actually alot depends on expectation and user. Some like their music loud and in a certain way, if no amp, there might be distortion. Doubling of loudness is not simply the equivalent of doubling the amp power. A 3db increase requires about double of the power. Might not be an issue if music is played at reasonable level.

 

Also in most cases, power demand is not constant and varies and certain segment may require more power and when that cannot be met, there might be distortion. In lesser extend, the sound does not sound nice and if out of control, can damage the speakers.

Edited August 26, 2018 by Hosaybo

[Jamesc]

That's exactly right.

 

Before buying any speakers go and listen with your favourite songs.

The worse thing a person can do is buy without listening and buying

based on paper specifications. This is madness.

 

You cannot tell if you like the sound of a speaker based on its paper specs.

It cannot tell you if the speaker is too sharp or the bass is too boomy or its

the perfect sound you like.    

 

The other thing is 2 people might hear the same speaker and one might love

it and one might hate it. Why? Because we all have different hearing. As we

get older we cannot hear the higher frequencies.

 

In Europe some convenience shops play songs that teenagers hate at a higher

frequency so only they can hear and they cannot stand it and don't loiter in the

shop. Old people cannot hear this and are not affected by it.

 

The most stupid advice I have ever heard in hifi is don't listen to the speaker, don't

hang around car audio shop.

 

Just buy based on paper specifications.

 

Only a clown would say this and he did. This kind of stupidity is unbelievable. 

 

 

 

[Jamesc]

Also at the shop you can ask the shop assistant to turn it up.

 

If the speakers cannot take the power he will tell you the speakers

 

cannot take it and he will advise you whether you need an amp or a

 

different kind of speaker or whatever. He is not going to blow up his

 

own speakers.

 

 

 

[Jamesc]

 

not quite agree..

i went to hear the gnd 0 & morel comp spkr w amp at dimxxxxxx audio - sound so muffled, esp w the alpine amp caused it to be really soft; like no amp! my stock speakers definitely clearer than these except no bass.

i went autoxxxxx entxxxxxxxx to hear helix b62c comp spkr w/o amp - sound so LIVE.

go hear for urself. low power comp spkr dont really need amp. really. i find it a misleading that ICE shops r offering amp & spkr package - at least the should couple w mid-hi end spkr if they do so...

i'm starting to believe we dont need to even have an amp & subwoofer - i find it overly loud n bassy. of cos, if u open ur car doors to blast music, dat another thing altogether.

 

[Jamesc]

 

me know nuts too. but after hearing at few audio shops, i find that there r diff sound quality.

so far have heard lanzar heritage, helix b62c, maestro (dunno model), hertz (ur linked model), morel (dunno model), focal (duno model), gnd zero (dunno model). price for "(dunno model)" incl install at 350 to 399 (except focal that i presume higher end, & gnd zero but w amp that i dont need, so didnt ask).

muffled ones is lanzar heritage - sound like singing from background / faraway.

best overall clarity n bass - helix b62c & morel (dunno wc model - suspect its maximo); oni former made in German n latter in PRC. morel one for certain music slightly clearer in mid-hi range; helix very clear in vocal. maestro sounded no diff fr these 2 also.

hertz dsk 165 - loudness is there but not so clear; not better than my stock.

focal (dunno model) - again, vocal no so good, sound more "tight"

gnd zero - cmi (but dunno due to no tuning / proper setup, but since installer said connected to amp, i no longer interested)

conclusion - bring ur own cd / thumbdrive & listen to a few tracks emphasizing all range of low, mid, hi (initial-d music soundtrack very good to test out - its got lows, mids n hi n even sudden low - hi n hi-low) listen to few tracks, switch over between spkr to hear diff unless at diff shops, rewind some parts of twisting betwe hi-low or lo-hi to see how spkr respond i necessary. note some stup in room n some in open. for info, the good spkr i hear was not setup in room. finally, go back ur car n hear to compare diff as soon as poss.

so u b the final judge.

2 cents worth.