Which performance part helps the most?

[Chisiang]

ok this is getting absurd. This is about an issue of ego vs discussion.

 

I only want to discuss about the below points:

 

1) pressure loss goes up exponentially as the boost pressure rises? Do you know why? Can you explain why?

 

2) example a blitz lm thats 600x240mm cools equally to some 150x100mm ARC intecoolers, but the pressure loss is less with the ARC. Explain that with Boyles. - Please provide figures or reference source. Speculation is cheap.

 

3) actually he isnt smarter because both mazda AND subaru have stated that they use the TMIC for cost cutting as its easier to assemble everything then drop the whole thing into the engine bay rather than to have to join more parts after having to place them in seperately, not to mention all of this has to be done in a cramped space. - source reference please

 

4) Obviously all the tuning companies from tomei, to hks to jackson to top secret all are dumber than mazda and subaru engineers for changing it from a TMIC to FMIC. - Changing to a FMIC is not because the design is flawed but an upgrade. The reason for FMIC is so that a larger intercooler can be installed. ARC also sells TMIC upgrades, so please explain this "dumbness" please.

 

Again, I think we should not stray away from the topic too much. And you have not managed to put up a convincing debate on "the pressure loss from having an intercooler actually robs the car of power as compared to the same FI car with no intercooler or a smaller intercooler."

 

If this is about winning and losing, I admit defeat. But if it is about seeking the truth, then I would suggest you take a more nuetral approach and seek the truth together in a more constructive manner.

[Elfenstar]

1) Unfortunately i don't know why, but this is well documented in performace circles. Feel free to browse forums run by performance workshops (e.g. MRT is aust- a very reputable tuning company that created the fastest WRX in the world till subaru head hunted their staff to better the record). Closest thing i've found in a 2 min internet search is this "If the air capacity is inadequate the pressure drop across the unit [Delta-P] will increase and the temperature differential [Delta-T] across the unit will decrease." from http://www.conleyracing.com/article_intercooler.htm

 

 

2)Taken from http://www.nolimitmotorsport.com/blitz/intercooler-lm.html (Blitz IC)

BLITZ

Edited June 2, 2006 by Elfenstar

[Chisiang]

Thanks for being objective and this post does put up some very strong basis to rethink some of my statement.

 

However, I wish to point out, before we proceed, that the internet has plenty of information for research but there are also a lot of junks. Viewers should decides for themselves what information they read is CREDIBLE, and what are junks. This is because most of our references, including mine, are based on articles published by companies and individuals on the internet.

 

This debate is about whether Elfenstar statement of "the pressure loss from having an intercooler actually robs the car of power as compared to the same FI car with no intercooler or a smaller intercooler."

 

Basically the few variables involved are:

 

1) Pressure

2) Volume

4) Temperature

 

These are the variables of Ideal Gas Law, whereby:

 

P1V1/T1 = P2V2/T2

 

P1=INITIAL PRESSURE

V1=INITIAL VOLUME

T1=INITIAL TEMPERATURE

 

P2=FINAL PRESSURE

V2=FINAL VOLUME

T2=FINAL TEMPERATURE

 

For argument sake, imagine the conditions as below:

 

Running 1 BAR boost before intercooling = P1

Intake Air Temperature before cooling is 150 deg C = T1

 

After intercooling, let's assume there is a drop in 40 deg C = 150-40 = 110 = T2

With Volume being constant = V1=V2

 

Given P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2 --------(1)

 

SUBSTITUTE P1=1, T1=150, T2=110 INTO (1)

 

V1/150=P2V2/110

110V1=150P2V2 --------------------(2)

 

SUBSITUTUE V2=V1 INTO (2)

 

110V1=150P2V1

 

DIVIDE BOTH SIDE BY V1

 

110V1/V1=150P2V1/V1

110=150P2

 

THEREFORE P2 = 110/150 = 0.7333 BAR

 

This concludes that in order to achieve the same volume of air into the engine after intercooling with a drop in 40 deg C, the pressure after intercooling must drop to 0.733 BAR.

 

Let's assume a better intercooler is able to lose 70 deg C compared to the previous example, while all other remain the same.

 

After intercooling, let's assume there is a drop in 70 deg C = 150-70 = 80 = T2

With Volume being constant = V1=V2

 

Given P1V1/T1=P2V2/T2 --------(1)

 

SUBSTITUTE P1=1, T1=150, T2=80 INTO (1)

 

V1/150=P2V2/80

80V1=150P2V2 --------------------(2)

 

SUBSITUTUE V2=V1 INTO (2)

 

80V1=150P2V1

 

DIVIDE BOTH SIDE BY V1

 

80V1/V1=150P2V1/V1

80=150P2

 

THEREFORE P2 = 80/150 = 0.5333 BAR

 

This further shows that a more cooling intercooler will have an even higher drop in pressure when more heat is dissipated.

 

In examples of those articles posted, the measure of drop in pressure is not a result of air being cooled but flow effectiveness. A poorly designed intercooler will cause obstruction, which in terms built up pressure before intercooling! This makes the difference in pressure before and after intercooling look bad.

 

If this is true, your argument should be, "by running a poorly designed intercooler, the pressure drop as a result of obstruction, actually robs the car of power as compared to the same FI car with no intercooler."

 

  Quote

As I've been saying all the way, it may rob the car of power and not it will rob the car of power.

 

But this was what you stated below in the previous post.

 

  Quote

As opposed to NA car in which cooler air = denser air = more power, the pressure loss from having an intercooler actually robs the car of power as compared to the same FI car with no intercooler or a smaller intercooler. There is also an increase ramp up time linked to an increase in size of an intercooler.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------

  Quote

3)Mind you, i'm humouring you as simple laws of physics can answer why a TMIC is not as ideal as a FMIC. It is well documented that TMIC's are prone to heatsoak when the vehicle is not moving or moving at slower speeds. Lets start with two simple questions then.

Why did mazda switch from a TMIC in the FC rx-7 to a FMIC in the FD rx-7?

Why do the rally WRX's use FMIC rather than the TMIC?

 

Yes sir! Law of physics can answer why a TMIC is not as ideal as a FMIC, but your answer to your own question is wrong!

 

Heat soak IS NOT why a FMIC is better than, and no intercooler in this world is made for stationary or slow moving. All intercooler, regardless or TMIC or FMIC will not function when there is no moving air. And when do you need to cool the air? When it is charged. So when does the air gets charged? Under boost. And when air is under boost, air temperature increased. And charged air is hotted than your typical engine bay temperature, which is also much more higher than the heat soak temperature.

 

The reason for a FMIC is because you can afford to have better cooling and therefore denser air=more power, at the expense of lossing pressure! You just answer yourself about robbing power and pressure loss.

 

I think the above will answer the two questions.

 

  Quote

I suggest you actually start physically working on and testing your car if you wish to learn more rather than just listen to hearsay. Like you said, this isnt abt winning or losing. its about learning more.

 

On the contrary, before coming across this article, I did physically work and test on my car, and I did learn more!

 

I am running a Blitz twin roots blower with a Blitz Intercooler which is smaller than the LM Type J core. The boost is 0.45 bar. I did a intercooler bypass hoping the increase in boost will gives me better power. But I was wrong! Although registering a peak boost of 0.7 bar, my car did 206 hp at the wheels, compared to 216 when intercooled though running only at 0.45 bar boost.

 

  Quote

While you at it other than in cost and minimal lag, why don't you show me how having a TMIC is not a flawed design by manufacturers as well

 

Well, there are more than just cost. Space constraints, safety reasons, and of course for appearance. I have examined and watch my men fit FMIC onto several customers' WRXs and we all know that the GD# family have very packed engine bay, which makes a FMIC almost impossible unless the stock air box is removed and replaced by open pod filter. In addition, the front impact beam must be removed in order to mount a FMIC which compromises safety. This was the same for Legacy. I've not examined any FD or FC so I can't comment.

 

Thank you for reading.

[BMW320i]

Well, there are more than just cost. Space constraints, safety reasons, and of course for appearance. I have examined and watch my men fit FMIC onto several customers' WRXs and we all know that the GD# family have very packed engine bay, which makes a FMIC almost impossible unless the stock air box is removed and replaced by open pod filter. In addition, the front impact beam must be removed in order to mount a FMIC which compromises safety. This was the same for Legacy.

 

Yeah ... tell me f**king about it...

 

Greddy "Bolt On" kit my butt.

 

You can't retain the foglights either.

[Elfenstar]

  Quote

In examples of those articles posted, the measure of drop in pressure is not a result of air being cooled but flow effectiveness. A poorly designed intercooler will cause obstruction, which in terms built up pressure before intercooling! This makes the difference in pressure before and after intercooling look bad.

 

If this is true, your argument should be, "by running a poorly designed intercooler, the pressure drop as a result of obstruction, actually robs the car of power as compared to the same FI car with no intercooler."

 

Pretty much what i've been saying except that it doesnt necessarily mean a poorly designed intercooler (e.g. those damn hybrid copy coolers vs the over engineered and very exensive ARC units).

 

It could just mean a poorly matched intercooler (i'm saying that bigger core does not mean better performace or a tube and fin setup may not be better than a bar and plate setup in a low boost scenario, but then there are heaps of other factors).

 

 

  Quote

Quote

As I've been saying all the way, it may rob the car of power and not it will rob the car of power.

 

But this was what you stated below in the previous post.

 

Quote

As opposed to NA car in which cooler air = denser air = more power, the pressure loss from having an intercooler actually robs the car of power as compared to the same FI car with no intercooler or a smaller intercooler. There is also an increase ramp up time linked to an increase in size of an intercooler.

 

My bad. I phrased it wrongly.

 

 

  Quote

Heat soak IS NOT why a FMIC is better than, and no intercooler in this world is made for stationary or slow moving. All intercooler, regardless or TMIC or FMIC will not function when there is no moving air. And when do you need to cool the air? When it is charged. So when does the air gets charged? Under boost. And when air is under boost, air temperature increased. And charged air is hotted than your typical engine bay temperature, which is also much more higher than the heat soak temperature.

 

The reason for a FMIC is because you can afford to have better cooling and therefore denser air=more power, at the expense of lossing pressure! You just answer yourself about robbing power and pressure loss.

 

I think the above will answer the two questions.

 

yes the FMIC has better cooling (which is what we both agree on and the reason for an intercooler in the first case), but there is no pressure loss due to the position of the intercooler. There is longer lag due to the longer piping, which is why the V-mount FMIC was developed.

 

 

  Quote

Well, there are more than just cost. Space constraints, safety reasons, and of course for appearance. I have examined and watch my men fit FMIC onto several customers' WRXs and we all know that the GD# family have very packed engine bay, which makes a FMIC almost impossible unless the stock air box is removed and replaced by open pod filter. In addition, the front impact beam must be removed in order to mount a FMIC which compromises safety. This was the same for Legacy. I've not examined any FD or FC so I can't comment.

 

The saftely aspects and space constraints (e.g. the airbox being repositioned from factory) should be relatively simple to overcome provided they would increase the amount of money that they spend developing the car. Which boils down to cost again. Yes the GD wrx's are cramped, but no, it shouldnt be that hard considering that there are kits out there that only require a repositioning of the standard airbox and cutting the inside of the plastic bumper.

 

as for the FC rx7... that car is a dream to work with for intercoolers... you can pretty much use any layout (even the space monster v mount) with minimal work.

 

  Quote

On the contrary, before coming across this article, I did physically work and test on my car, and I did learn more!

 

I am running a Blitz twin roots blower with a Blitz Intercooler which is smaller than the LM Type J core. The boost is 0.45 bar. I did a intercooler bypass hoping the increase in boost will gives me better power. But I was wrong! Although registering a peak boost of 0.7 bar, my car did 206 hp at the wheels, compared to 216 when intercooled though running only at 0.45 bar boost.

 

Thats good to hear... its always good to meet another fellow mod junkie . this is off topic but what are u driving? there arent many SC cars around. This is a lil out of my area as I've only had the chance to tinker with some SC V6's, 2 ae86's, 1 mr2 and 1 HKS SC kitted 350z.

 

 

  Quote

However, I wish to point out, before we proceed, that the internet has plenty of information for research but there are also a lot of junks. Viewers should decides for themselves what information they read is CREDIBLE, and what are junks. This is because most of our references, including mine, are based on articles published by companies and individuals on the internet.

 

as for this, yes i am very aware and as such i am very selective of where i get my information from, even if it agrees with what i say.

[Elfenstar]

see lah, being a cheapskate you should have gone for the ARC, just helped put one on the bugeye last weekend. From what i've seen, the only company that really means bolt on (other than cutting the bumper). Be glad you didnt go the buy the intercooler and piping kit seperately way...

[BMW320i]

What cheapskate ...

 

The Greddy V-SPL cost a whooping $2200aud man !!

 

Kinda think about it I think I suffered about 100-200rpm turbolag increment after tuning.

 

That brings my full boost at 4000rpm with the big momma turbo.

[Elfenstar]

joking lah... i know u were not being cheap lah but still cheaper than the ARC... heng this one for the bugeye was obtained at cost price .

 

Btw, i think i want one of those in STI guise man... it looks better and better the more i look at it... too bad no $$$ now

[Chisiang]

I'm driving a RS200 see avatar for more

[BMW320i]

There are just times paying more for a brand rather than what it does is simply not neccessary.

 

Save up for BNR 34

[Elfenstar]

Ford RS200??? Dun look like that leh... and its TC not SC. did u mean Lexus ES200???

[Elfenstar]

R32 lah. Told you I'm saving up to take over my friends GTR when he goes back to taiwan.

 

Hopefully can save up enuff quick enuff.

[BMW320i]

And the 300hp Sera ?

[Wolverine]

 

[Blue2]

u forget about MCF decal...5bhp gain immediately,,,,

[Elfenstar]

A friend is encouraging me to go that way... he says "do something different"

 

But IMHO i think rwd is more me

[Elfenstar]

Where can we buy one

[BMW320i]

Nah ... 300ho sera is not the way to go.

 

R32 ! R32 ! R32 !