Which performance part helps the most?

[Elfenstar]

Intercoolers do not increase power although they allow you to make more power safely.

 

Laugh I tot it is to lower the temp. of the air b4 it enters the air intake manifold?

 

The rational behind intercoolers is for engine safety.

 

The compressed air that goes into the engine is not ambient air temps like in a NA car, they are heated by the compression process. As such the intercooler cools the air to prevent early detonation.

 

As opposed to NA car in which cooler air = denser air = more power, the pressure loss from having an intercooler actually robs the car of power as compared to the same FI car with no intercooler or a smaller intercooler. There is also an increase ramp up time linked to an increase in size of an intercooler.

Edited May 31, 2006 by Elfenstar

[Kelpie]

I did a post ages ago about an elect turbo that did work. it would set you back ant USD$2k just for the actual item.

 

TC and SC are both equally engine friendly, just that SC is less power friendly as it uses the engines power to drive it while the TC uses waste gases.

 

1. I read from somwhere that an Air Intake Blower (aka electric air charger)can be contacted to a switch inside the car, so whenever you need more power you simply flip the switch and run. A typical Air Intake Blower produces 250CFM of forced air into your intake. A stock turbo from an Audi 1.8T produces roughly 400CFM. Adding an Air Intake Blower will produce about 250CFM and you don't need to do any modifications to your engine. 250CFM of forced air can also be equated to a 15-25 shot of Nitrous.

 

2. The Air Intake Blower is operated on a 12-volt source. This means you can contact it to your battery to get the power. It uses 2.2 amps from your alternator while at work which doesn't create any pressure on it especially while driving at high RPMs.

 

3. However, someone also feedback that if an Air Intake Blower is not constructed properly, its broken blade or parts could be suck in and destroy your engine. I wonder how true is this.

 

Regards,

[Elfenstar]

you must have read it from some con-mans website.

 

do a search though the performance section. genie and a few others have explained exactly why their claims are BS (both in terms of flow, and results).

[Kelpie]

you must have read it from some con-mans website.

 

do a search though the performance section. genie and a few others have explained exactly why their claims are BS (both in terms of flow, and results).

 

Lately, if I'm correct, genie47 mentioned about this electrical stuff that he wondered whether LTA has new regulation governing its use.

 

Regards,

[Kelpie]

you must have read it from some con-mans website.

 

do a search though the performance section. genie and a few others have explained exactly why their claims are BS (both in terms of flow, and results).

 

Isn't it the concept all based on the root of forced compressed air through the use of different technique?

 

Regards,

[Elfenstar]

i'm sure what genie said was not regarding the performance of these snake oils.

 

as for the compressed air bit. genie did mention exactly why they cannot produce their claimed flow rate. It was even caluclated how much electrical power was needed to make such an item flow at its said rate.

[Dwoon]

Air flow of 250CFM is one thing.... but I've always wondered how would the pressure be maintained?

 

Is there any form of wastegate? If there's no wastgate, would the back pressure on the impeller actually slow it down? Then if that's the case.... would the response be slow (maybe alot of lag)?

[Watwheels]

TC, ECU, Intercooler, Suspension upgrade are some how connected.

 

TC ur car u'll need to change the air intake manifold to a bigger one if possible cos it is like the lungs of ur engine. Stock ECU works like a statistics calculator working on the possibilities on the amount of air fuel mixtures, meeting FC and CO2 emissions at the same time. Having a so call piggy back system or re-chip of the ECU will throw out what the stock ECU does and have all possibilities on the air/fuel ratio giving u power regardless of FC & emissions.

 

Intercooler is to cool the compressed air induced by the TC. Ever manual pump a bicycle b4? Wonder why the tyre or pump becomes warm. It's the result of compressed air not friction.

U'll also need to change the piston heads to lower the compression ratio. Usually those aftermarket piston heads with machined cavity on the surface. Cos compressed air with stock(high) compression ratio (eg 1:10 means the air/fuel mixture is compressed to one tenth of their original volume) will cause the petrol to self ignite b4 the piston head can fully compress the air/fuel mixture(loss in power).

 

Suspension upgrade from stock(soft) is needed to cope with the significant increased in torque or power @ the wheels. Whether is FWD, RWD or 4WD.

 

U'll need things like blow off valve to maintain the pressure of the compressed air. the list goes on.

 

Just get a car that comes with all these built in by the car maker. Saves the trouble for legal reasons.

Edited May 31, 2006 by Watwheels

[BMW320i]

I did a post ages ago about an elect turbo that did work. it would set you back ant USD$2k just for the actual item.

 

TC and SC are both equally engine friendly, just that SC is less power friendly as it uses the engines power to drive it while the TC uses waste gases.

 

1. I read from somwhere that an Air Intake Blower (aka electric air charger)can be contacted to a switch inside the car, so whenever you need more power you simply flip the switch and run. A typical Air Intake Blower produces 250CFM of forced air into your intake. A stock turbo from an Audi 1.8T produces roughly 400CFM. Adding an Air Intake Blower will produce about 250CFM and you don't need to do any modifications to your engine. 250CFM of forced air can also be equated to a 15-25 shot of Nitrous.

 

2. The Air Intake Blower is operated on a 12-volt source. This means you can contact it to your battery to get the power. It uses 2.2 amps from your alternator while at work which doesn't create any pressure on it especially while driving at high RPMs.

 

3. However, someone also feedback that if an Air Intake Blower is not constructed properly, its broken blade or parts could be suck in and destroy your engine. I wonder how true is this.

 

Regards,

 

Number 1. Not true.

 

What has CFM got to do with Nitrous.

[Chisiang]

I dunno if it is better, but TC is more efficent.

 

See my reply to turbonetics on SC.

 

the real question is do you want more power at low revs or more top end. the SC is better for low revs as it spins quick enough for boost from start but runs out of puff up to and a TC takes some time to create boost (lag) but does not run out of puff at top end if you get the right size.

 

One point to note is that NOT ALL SC is better for low revolution. Only the root blower and twin screw SC excels in low end. The centrigugal SC behaves exactly like a turbo despite being mechanically driven by crank.

[Kanr]

sound cool,bro!!!

[Chisiang]

the pressure loss from having an intercooler actually robs the car of power as compared to the same FI car with no intercooler or a smaller intercooler. There is also an increase ramp up time linked to an increase in size of an intercooler.

 

I beg to differ.

 

Boost is not a measurement of power. More boost does not gives more power.

 

A FI car with a higher intake temperature @ higher boost does not means it is more powerful than when intercooled @ a slightly lower boost.

 

Here's a superb article extract from Supercharged! by Corky Bell.

 

http://www.lextreme.com/icvsnic.htm

[Chisiang]

1. I read from somwhere that an Air Intake Blower (aka electric air charger)can be contacted to a switch inside the car, so whenever you need more power you simply flip the switch and run. A typical Air Intake Blower produces 250CFM of forced air into your intake. A stock turbo from an Audi 1.8T produces roughly 400CFM. Adding an Air Intake Blower will produce about 250CFM and you don't need to do any modifications to your engine. 250CFM of forced air can also be equated to a 15-25 shot of Nitrous.

 

2. The Air Intake Blower is operated on a 12-volt source. This means you can contact it to your battery to get the power. It uses 2.2 amps from your alternator while at work which doesn't create any pressure on it especially while driving at high RPMs.

 

3. However, someone also feedback that if an Air Intake Blower is not constructed properly, its broken blade or parts could be suck in and destroy your engine. I wonder how true is this.

 

Regards,

 

I must emphasise again that air intake is NOT CONSTANT. Please understand that 250CFM of air could means alot at 1,500 RPM but is really nothing at 6,000 RPM. A blower should move air in relative to engine revolution. If it is simply a constant air mover, then it is only optimised for a very narrow window making it completely useless at other rpm ranges.

 

All FI are moving or compressing air at increasing volume relative to engine rpm and NEVER CONSTANT.

[Elfenstar]

That is true, but with the large majority of SC's now being of the roots type, i reckon it would be a fair generalisation.

 

not to mention that if you do go to one of the few manufacturers that carry a centrifugal SC, the price now exceeds that of a TC with similar output.

[Elfenstar]

Yes, the density of the air is more important than the volume of the air.

 

however just like a FI car with a higher intake temperature @ higher boost does not means it is more powerful than when intercooled @ a slightly lower boost (common misconception), it also doesnt mean that an intercooled car at slightly lower boost is more powerful than a non-intercooled car at higher (or even equal) boost (or a car with a smaller intercooler).

 

"A typical forced induction road car might be on boost for only 5 per cent of the time, and even when it is on boost, it is perhaps for only 20 seconds at a stretch. Any decent forced induction road car will be travelling at well over 160 km/h if given 20 seconds of full boost from a standstill, meaning that longer periods of high boost occur only when (much lhill-climbing, towing or driving at maximum speed. While all of the engine systems should be designed with the maximum full load capability in mind, in reality very few cars will ever experience this. This factor means that the heat-sink ability of the intake system must be considered.

 

If the inlet air temperature of the engine in cruise condition is 20°C above ambient, then on a 25° day the inlet air temp will be 45°C. After 30 minutes or so of running, all of the different components of the intake system will also have stabilised at around this temperature. If the engine then comes on boost and there is a sudden rise in the temp of the air being introduced to this system, the temperature of the turbo compressor cover (or blower housing), inlet duct, throttle body, plenum chamber, and inlet runners will all increase. These components increase in temp because they are removing heat from the intake air, limiting the magnitude of the initial rise in the actual intake air temperature. As a result, the infrequent short bursts of boost used in a typical road-driven forced-induction car often produce a lower initial intake air temperature than expected.This doesn't mean that intercooling is not worthwhile - it certainly is - but that the theory of the temperature increase doesn't always match reality."(autospeed issue 12)

 

i.e. when on normal road driving conditions, the intercooler does not cool the intake charge significantly enough than a system running at higher boost that does not have an intercooler.

 

Also here are some excerpts from the bell intercoolers webpage

"Is some intercooling better than no intercooling?

No. It depends on the design of the intercooler, and there are two factors involved; efficiency (how much heat is removed) and the flow restriction (lost pressure) created by the presence of the intercooler. Regardless of the efficiency, if too much pressure is lost, then the intercooler is either useless or can actually decrease performance."

 

"What ranges of pressure loss can be expected? And what is acceptable?

For good solid performance, the pressure loss across the intercooler ought to be kept to less than 1.0 to 1.5 psi. If any pressure in excess of 4 psi is measured, then the intercooler is not suited for the job and certainly harming the performance."

 

"What is flow loss thru an intercooler?

Flow loss is what is measured in the pressure loss and is the restriction presented to the smooth, easy air flow through the system. Essentially, the drag. It is measured by a pressure difference between the air charge entering the intercooler to that exiting the intercooler. This flow loss is due to the aerodynamic drag offered by the shape, the net area of the tubes, the length of the tubes, and the density and style of the turbulators"

 

"How/why is the flow loss significant?

The net result is the production of power. It is hugely important because the power required to drive the air thru the system must come from somewhere. Depending on whether the system is turbocharged or supercharged, will determine how much power is lost from the restriction."

 

What does all of this mean??? it means only psychopaths (like BMW320i and I) who do push their car to the limits for extended periods of time on much higher boost than stock (more than double in my case) would find that an intercooler upgrade will cool our intake charge sufficiently to give more power. It is a larger and more efficient FMIC in his case, and a much much more efficient SMIC of similar size in my case.

 

It is also because of this insignificant temp difference that many drag cars run without an intercooler.

 

In most cases the intercooler does not sufficently cool the charge to give any power increase, BUT it is an extra safety measure to prevent early detonation should the intake charge be too high.

 

As an added note, in cars with a TMIC (like the FC series RX7 and WRX) the top mounted intercooler works the opposite in city trafic. It increases the intake temp, though the much shorter piping results in a faster ramp up time.

Edited June 1, 2006 by Elfenstar

[Chisiang]

Actually I've read the above articles countless of time too. But...

 

This was what you wrote:

 

the pressure loss from having an intercooler actually robs the car of power as compared to the same FI car with no intercooler or a smaller intercooler. There is also an increase ramp up time linked to an increase in size of an intercooler.[.quote]

 

And, I am replying in reference to your point that pressure loss from having an intercooler actually robs the car of power with the introduction of a intercooler or a bigger intercooler.

 

My reply pointed out that pressure loss due to the above do not rob power.

 

The first article you posted can be summarised as: Intercooling Street usability

 

"Is some intercooling better than no intercooling?

No. It depends on the design of the intercooler, and there are two factors involved; efficiency (how much heat is removed) and the flow restriction (lost pressure) created by the presence of the intercooler. Regardless of the efficiency, if too much pressure is lost, then the intercooler is either useless or can actually decrease performance."

 

What kind of Q & A is this? The answer is not relevant or not answering to the point. Name me a intercooler design that lose "too much pressure"? The person answering is simply avoiding the question. His answer is more like "Use a lousy intercooler it will reduce performance" rather than "if you use an intercooler you will lose power"

 

"What ranges of pressure loss can be expected? And what is acceptable?

For good solid performance, the pressure loss across the intercooler ought to be kept to less than 1.0 to 1.5 psi. If any pressure in excess of 4 psi is measured, then the intercooler is not suited for the job and certainly harming the performance."

 

Nothing said about the difference between intercooled performance and non-intercooler performance. And it is also quite contradicting to Boyle's law. The more the air is

cooled, the more should the pressure drop.

 

Extract from http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/turbo/intercooler.html

 

Pressure drop is important because the higher the turbo discharge pressure is the higher the temperature of the turbo air. When we drop the turbo discharge pressure we also drop the temperature of the air coming out of the turbo.

 

The rest and most of the article provides information more for choosing an intercooler.

 

It is also because of this insignificant temp difference that many drag cars run without an intercooler.

 

I thought most drag cars HAVE A MASSIVE INTERCOOLER??

 

In most cases the intercooler does not sufficently cool the charge to give any power increase, BUT it is an extra safety measure to prevent early detonation should the intake charge be too high.

 

I lost all my respect for this article. This guy is either drunk whe typing this article or he is just a kid writing for his dad.

 

As an added note, in cars with a TMIC (like the FC series RX7 and WRX) the top mounted intercooler works the opposite in city trafic. It increases the intake temp, though the much shorter piping results in a faster ramp up time.

 

?????? Shorter piping? Increase intake temperature? OMG! So why have TMIC in the first place? This guy is smarter than Mazda and Subaru engineers.

[Dwoon]

Think the last bit is about heat soak fron traffic jams. The IC being located in the engine bay & near the turbo would actually soak up heat and instead of cooling the intake, raises the temp of the charged air.

 

Until the car is moving around for abit after the jam, then with moving air flow through the TMIC, the charged air would be cooled. This is a limitation that Subaru cars on stock TMIC face during jams or start-stop driving conditions.

[Elfenstar]

The first article is basically to set the tone that having an intercooler does not mean that there is an increase in power (does not mean it will lose either). the bell intercoolers q and a was for that.

 

 

And, I am replying in reference to your point that pressure loss from having an intercooler actually robs the car of power with the introduction of a intercooler or a bigger intercooler.

 

My reply pointed out that pressure loss due to the above do not rob power.

 

therein lies the problem... as far as you're concerned, the only pressure loss is from the air being cooled, when there is more to it that just that.

 

the pressure loss is not only from the air being cooled. it is also from physically having the intercooler in path of the airflow. the design of the intercooler, finishing on the inside of the intercooler and even piping size makes a huge difference to how much pressure is lost.

 

If you look at any reputable intercooler product information sheets, you'll realise that there is a statement of how much pressure loss there is at a certain boost pressure, and the pressure loss goes up exponentially as the boost pressure rises.

 

 

I thought most drag cars HAVE A MASSIVE INTERCOOLER??

Actually most (rarely found) TC drag cars have no intercooler because they want as little lag as possible. ALL supercharged drag cars have no intercooler. the SC is mounted directly on the intake manifold so its physically impossible. Mind you when i say drag cars i refer to dedicated drag cars no some street legal car used for drags.

 

 

"Is some intercooling better than no intercooling?

No. It depends on the design of the intercooler, and there are two factors involved; efficiency (how much heat is removed) and the flow restriction (lost pressure) created by the presence of the intercooler. Regardless of the efficiency, if too much pressure is lost, then the intercooler is either useless or can actually decrease performance."

 

What kind of Q & A is this? The answer is not relevant or not answering to the point. Name me a intercooler design that lose "too much pressure"? The person answering is simply avoiding the question. His answer is more like "Use a lousy intercooler it will reduce performance" rather than "if you use an intercooler you will lose power"

 

How hard is that to understand??? the answer is No. why, because sometimes the pressure loss may be too much that it renders having a lower level of oxygen going into the engine than without the intercooler or with a smaller intercooler. As i said before, the pressure loss if not only due to cooling. For example a blitz lm thats 600x240mm cools equally to some 150x100mm ARC intecoolers, but the pressure loss is less with the ARC. Explain that with Boyles. This is one of the rare occasions when a manufacturer says that it may not be beneficial to use their product. all the more reason to trust their judgement.

 

 

In most cases the intercooler does not sufficently cool the charge to give any power increase, BUT it is an extra safety measure to prevent early detonation should the intake charge be too high.

 

I lost all my respect for this article. This guy is either drunk whe typing this article or he is just a kid writing for his dad.

 

That was ME (in case u missed where the quotes-in italics- ended and where i started). Please refer to the autospeed article. Btw, I think you missed out quoting the bit on "when on normal road driving conditions"

 

 

As an added note, in cars with a TMIC (like the FC series RX7 and WRX) the top mounted intercooler works the opposite in city trafic. It increases the intake temp, though the much shorter piping results in a faster ramp up time.

 

?????? Shorter piping? Increase intake temperature? OMG! So why have TMIC in the first place? This guy is smarter than Mazda and Subaru engineers.

 

In case you don't know still, that was ME again.

 

actually he isnt smarter because both mazda AND subaru have stated that they use the TMIC for cost cutting as its easier to assemble everything then drop the whole thing into the engine bay rather than to have to join more parts after having to place them in seperately, not to mention all of this has to be done in a cramped space.

 

Obviously all the tuning companies from tomei, to hks to jackson to top secret all are dumber than mazda and subaru engineers for changing it from a TMIC to FMIC.

 

Also you obviosuly don't know enough about intercooling a car if you don't even know how the piping size or intercooler location affects the performance of a car. Would you know abt how size affects it or the differnt types of internals affect performance and cooling??

 

Edit: p.s. the only TMIC format that seems to work well is when there is a very thick layer of heat shielding material between the intercooler and the engine. It also needs to take in air from the front of the vehicle and allow the heated air to escape from vents on the bonnet. Even then heatsoak is still more prevalent than in using a SMIC or FMIC layout.

Edited June 1, 2006 by Elfenstar