Surbo Turbo ?? try experience??

[Turbonetics]

  Quote

That depends. I have seen a Surbo-powered Proton humbled a Civic.

 

 

u mean a proton won a civic???

if so,i dun believe its the work of the surbo....

[Genie47]

A Proton humbled a Civic?

 

Let me tell you the bad news.

[Turbonetics]

i dun get u....

[Genie47]

The Proton driver better lah! Like I tell someone, you can have all the soap in the world but if you don't know how to use soap, you can never be clean.

[BMW320i]

  Quote

I have came across this Surbo Turbo...just wondering if you folk can give me any advise on this product.

 

web link : http://www.surbo.net/

 

If you wanna clock 5 seconds from 0-10m strip. Surbo is the way to go. Go surbo !

[Yc86]

  Quote

  Quote

yah, it has a moving fan inside the cyclone shaped thingy right?

if its just a cyclone with fixed vanes inside, even more

what spin the air nonsense..

 

it got those fins that looks like a fan...

but i think it wun turn one....

the shape to to make the air that goes in "turn"...

 

issit? same as the cyclone?

ee.. alway thought cyclone was nonsense...

no matter how swirled the air, by the time it reaches the combustion chamber already anyhow liao

[Yc86]

  Quote

  Quote

I have came across this Surbo Turbo...just wondering if you folk can give me any advise on this product.

 

web link : http://www.surbo.net/

 

 

 

surbo is surbo...

turbo is turbo...

surbo is not turbo...

turbo is not surbo....

 

sound like some chinese riddle..

[Yc86]

  Quote

If you wanna clock 5 seconds from 0-10m strip. Surbo is the way to go. Go surbo !

 

almost got a scare, 0-100m in 5sec

0-10m, run also faster than 5sec..

[Yc86]

  Quote

Perhaps there are several ways of explaining cyclone and surbo effect.

 

If I still remembered what taught in school, air pressure falls as air velocity increases. Seems to me the swirling extended the distance to be travelled by air. For the same induction flow rate (travelling time), air velocity will have to rise inside the duct. Results is effective fall in pressure which can be translated as better suction that supposedly draws in more air. It probably benefits most during cruise having slightly more air drawn, hence improving FC.

 

But downside is the transcient for the swirling to build up. Previous style of throttling will feel lost in pickup. Most people will have to throttle alittle harder. City driving often suffers and FC might actually worsen.

 

The self-induced vacuum by sudden disruption of swirling might able to momentary produce sudden accceleration in certain cars.

 

ah... swirling extends the distance.. nv thought of that

but why is the flow rate the same?

[Yc86]

  Quote

edit:

the surbo is not a powered thing right? it's like a one way fan that spins as the suction draws the air in.. when the throttle is suddenly let go, the fan is stil spinning and thus continues to 'compress' the air inside.

 

then u open full throttle to 'activate' it, and this surge of air goes into the intake directly, giving a temporary 'boost' in power

 

but i'd say it won't work... how much air can a fan, driven by inertia compress? either it is very heavy and has lots of momentum to compress more air, but this restricts the air flowing in the first place... or it is too light, even more useless

 

what boost gauge installed... that 'boost' gauge is not even reading positive pressure in the diagram

 

use vacuum gauge enough already lah

 

oh.. kk thought it through..

the flow rate of air is controlled by the engine. therefore the engine vacuum pressure (difference between manifold pressure and atmosphere) is controlled by the TB, which ranges from -20 to 0 (atmospheric pressure), which means the max pressure u can get possibly is atmosphereic pressure (full open throttle)

 

taking flow rate to be constant, Q=VA.. velocity is the same also.

therefore if the distance were to increase with the velocity the same, the time taken would increase also

 

if you have a very long intake tube (distance increased), the air will take longer time to reach the TB.. that's why ppl go for the shortest piping available.. also taking into account the friction within the extended piping.

 

feel free to correct me if i'm wrong though...

Edited February 18, 2006 by Yc86

[Elfenstar]

  Quote

Perhaps there are several ways of explaining cyclone and surbo effect.

 

If I still remembered what taught in school, air pressure falls as air velocity increases. Seems to me the swirling extended the distance to be travelled by air. For the same induction flow rate (travelling time), air velocity will have to rise inside the duct. Results is effective fall in pressure which can be translated as better suction that supposedly draws in more air. It probably benefits most during cruise having slightly more air drawn, hence improving FC.

 

But downside is the transcient for the swirling to build up. Previous style of throttling will feel lost in pickup. Most people will have to throttle alittle harder. City driving often suffers and FC might actually worsen.

 

The self-induced vacuum by sudden disruption of swirling might able to momentary produce sudden accceleration in certain cars.

 

I'm no expert on this but i assumed that your "equation" is if air is pushed towards the surbo that the air will travel further after it passes the surbo (if it can actually cause the swirling effect). However in cars is the air sucked/pulled from the tb which means the "turbulence" caused by the surbo and the restriction it causes in the intake may actually reduce the amount of air sucked in as the engine has to try and breath harder to get the same amount of air in...

[W210k]

Right. Congratulations!

 

You have just discovered what tuning engineers have known and put into car engine designs decades ago.

 

Take the BMW VANOS - it comes with a dual-length air intake pipe ... one longer, one shorter. The longer one is used at lower RPMs so as to provide a higher front-end torque. The cutover to the shorter pipe is at higher RPMs, when you are already on mid-band, going to WOT.

 

I believe Toyota/Lexus' VVTi also uses dual-length air intake pipes. So did Alfa and the rest of em.

 

Personally, I don't buy all this Cyclone hype, since to maintain the air swirl across the injectors (restriction orifices really) before it gets into the combustion chamber is physically not possible. It may have perhaps worked better in a carburretor engine where the air ports are larger and the swirling air gets sucked in the downdraft (Bernoulli's effect) of the carburretor where it gets mixed with the fuel, thus atomising it.

 

But for today's fuel-injected, carburettor-less engine designs, I think the Cyclone hype just died a natural death many years ago.

 

BUT having said that, and IF (its a very big IF), the air swirl effect can be sustained allong the whole length of the air intake pipe, then it tries to mimic the longer approach distance of dual-intake length systems like the VANOS. But unfortunately, there is no mechanism to cut off the swirl effect at higher RPMs - that's when you need the shortest air route to the engine chambers at max volumetric flow nearer WOT. So the Cyclone thingy is still overall flawed in that sense, cos it can't stop doing what it is designed to do!

[Hattee]

Must have touched some sensitive issue here, my apologies. Back to the thread, surbo and cyclone is not totally irrelevant technically.

 

If my explanation not good, just an anology - take a look at the effects of gushing wind and the swirling tornado. One just plucks the leaves the other uproots the tree.

Edited February 19, 2006 by Hattee

[Hattee]

Elfenstar is right to certain extent if you look at the added throttling needed initially. Whether the swirling can make up for the restriction introduced will depend on the resultant air velocity, tunnel dimensions and air density. If a steeper pressure gradient can be generated by surbo or cyclone before (ambient) and after (swirling) the air filter, shouldn't the results be more air sucked in?

 

Perhaps, the anology above might also help alittle.

[Hattee]

Do you think current dyno is capable of accurately measuring marginal power and torque incresae during the short transcient of acceleration?

 

  Quote

Yeah, could be. Oh well, that's why I trust only one thing for any performance enhancement product: full fact sheet with dyno chart.

 

You'll be surprised how reluctant many of such product makers are to provide something as simple as that.

 

That's why reputed tuners, especially those for Conti's, would not hesitate to publish their dyno tunes.

[W210k]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you from the engineering standpoint.

 

Pressure drop (or gradient) is determined by:

(1) Atmospheric pressure on the outside, at 1 bar, 14.5 psi. Nature, this cannot change for NA engines.

(2) Combustion chamber's vacuum pressure (with exhaust valve full open) is determined by the manufacturer / engine design. Again cannot change by just inserting a static cyclone device. In fact cyclone will likely add more back-pressure, thus reducing the whole train's pressure drop even more, since you are adding something else to restrict air flow. Need higher delta-pressure for higher volumetric flow of air.

 

The only ways to increase pressure drop across the whole train are:

(1) Increase air inlet pressure, by using a TC or SC to compress the air inlet.

(2) Lower the exhaust-induced vacuum by letting the exhaust out faster.

For the second, many ways of doing it ..... larger exhaust diameter, straight pipe, remove cat converter, more-efficient extractor manifold configuration 6-2-1 or 6-2-2 for 6-pot engines.

 

But beware, that too much/fast exhaust out will lead to engine tuning inefficiencies and a general power slack, especially at lower RPMs!

Edited February 19, 2006 by W210k

[Yc86]

yup

the max pressure gradient is the engine vacuum pressure - atmospheric pressure.. which is a constant dependant on the type of car..

 

there is no such thing as sucking more air in an NA engine, as the max u can 'suck' (pressure) is only what nature can provide (atmospheric pressure)

 

by travelling the air over a longer distance, u're only sacrificing time taken for it to reach the TB

[Yc86]

  Quote

Must have touched some sensitive issue here, my apologies. Back to the thread, surbo and cyclone is not totally irrelevant technically.

 

If my explanation not good, just an anology - take a look at the effects of gushing wind and the swirling tornado. One just plucks the leaves the other uproots the tree.

 

no sensitive issues.. no worries

just friendly debates going on here i believe

 

a gushing wind and tornado have different velocities. if the wind is like a gale or hurricane.. then it'll almost have the same effects

wind is just caused by changes in pressure

 

hmm.. drift abit, how is a tornado formed? something bout cold air meeting hot air and they interract.. something to do with change in pressure also

Edited February 19, 2006 by Yc86