China 歼-20 first flight new photos

[Pocus]

Same goes for their apache copy of attack copters, it performed very well with a mock up OTR unlicensed engine when it didn't do well with its own locally built engine.

 

But give them a few years, they should be able to catch up.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Pocus

[Wishcumstrue]

I think China's biggest problem is still with its power delivery.

That is why they are buying Su-35 to study the Russian engine.

 

 

 

That is the assumption based on western intelligence - which had previously predicted that China wouldn't have its own stealth fighter this soon.

 

Purchase of the Su-35 specificaly for its AL-41F1C engine is well-know. Even the Russian admit this and they are prepared for the deal after EU/US sanction Moscow over the Crimea crisis.

 

What is lesser known however, is China wanted the engines not because it does not have similar powerful engines, but more for Su-35's thrust vectoring nozzle technology - and this is where J-20 canard profile comes into better play with its close-coupled flight control.

 

Imagine - a stealth version of Su-35 but with supercruise and supermaneuverability like that of T-50, but better.

 

 

[Wishcumstrue]

Russia's Saturn AL-31FN thrust vectoring test. The AL-41 will generate additional 15~20% more thrust.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wsJyC5g4IBo

[Vega]

Russia's Saturn AL-31FN thrust vectoring test. The AL-41 will generate additional 15~20% more thrust.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=wsJyC5g4IBo

wow!! that sound. orgasm man!!

[Ktglfc]

Never underestimate the chinese wisdom of copying technology and improving them ...

 

But whether able to last longer is another matter

[Vega]

The West claims even give China the blue print of Su-35 engine, they don't have the material to build it that will last.

maybe after 50 or 100 hours must change another one.

 

and interestingly, US is the only country from the West that is developing piloted 5th gen stealth fighters. the rest are going the UAV way.

 

 

That is the assumption based on western intelligence - which had previously predicted that China wouldn't have its own stealth fighter this soon.

 

Purchase of the Su-35 specificaly for its AL-41F1C engine is well-know. Even the Russian admit this and they are prepared for the deal after EU/US sanction Moscow over the Crimea crisis.

 

What is lesser known however, is China wanted the engines not because it does not have similar powerful engines, but more for Su-35's thrust vectoring nozzle technology - and this is where J-20 canard profile comes into better play with its close-coupled flight control.

 

Imagine - a stealth version of Su-35 but with supercruise and supermaneuverability like that of T-50, but better.

 

 

 

[Wishcumstrue]

The West claims even give China the blue print of Su-35 engine, they don't have the material to build it that will last.

maybe after 50 or 100 hours must change another one.

 

and interestingly, US is the only country from the West that is developing piloted 5th gen stealth fighters. the rest are going the UAV way.

 

 

 

Again, that is what the West had been saying in public, which may or may not reflect the reality.

AFAIK, there are only 3 countries which have active programmes on 5/6th gen fighters developments - US, Russia and China.

 

[Ake109]

My opinion on J-20?

 

Don't think the electronics will be able to match the Yanks yet.

 

Engines, there is still no confirmation that the WS-10 is operationally ready, and that is F110 class which the US had by the early 80s.

 

I think China still has some ways to go to match the USAF.

[Lurpsexx]

My opinion on J-20?

 

Don't think the electronics will be able to match the Yanks yet.

 

Engines, there is still no confirmation that the WS-10 is operationally ready, and that is F110 class which the US had by the early 80s.

 

I think China still has some ways to go to match the USAF.

 

And to add to that, the Chinese Design and Develop Bureaus have some ways to go since the J-10, J-20 and the Z attack helicopters designs are all bought from Russia and Israel. They can copy well, but without real skills and knowledge to genuinely develop a fighter or attack aircraft from a blank piece of paper, then the Chinese will always lag behind the West... The US already has operational UCAS (or soon to be) and these are already ahead of manned fighters anywhere else... just look at the fighter vs alien scenes in any sci-fi films and it'll be like that... hacking these UCAS is another matter, but there is no denying the next air war may see unmanned vs manned fighters dukeing it out in the furballs...

[Wishcumstrue]

My opinion on J-20?

 

Don't think the electronics will be able to match the Yanks yet.

 

Engines, there is still no confirmation that the WS-10 is operationally ready, and that is F110 class which the US had by the early 80s.

 

I think China still has some ways to go to match the USAF.

 

J-20 is being tested with AESA radar and WS-10 engine have long matured and used in J-10 fighters.

 

Relatively speaking, the technological gap is closing.

 

For e.g, compare J-20's developmental cycle of 4 years vs the F-35 of almost a decade, one cannot deny that the Chinese is catching up..

[Wishcumstrue]

 

And to add to that, the Chinese Design and Develop Bureaus have some ways to go since the J-10, J-20 and the Z attack helicopters designs are all bought from Russia and Israel. They can copy well, but without real skills and knowledge to genuinely develop a fighter or attack aircraft from a blank piece of paper, then the Chinese will always lag behind the West... The US already has operational UCAS (or soon to be) and these are already ahead of manned fighters anywhere else... just look at the fighter vs alien scenes in any sci-fi films and it'll be like that... hacking these UCAS is another matter, but there is no denying the next air war may see unmanned vs manned fighters dukeing it out in the furballs...

 

Corrections:

 

J-10 is locally designed with Israelis assistance, the J-20 is obviously one of a kind while Z-10 gunship was developed after the deal to purchase Russian Kamov Ka-50 and Mi-28 fell through.

 

Speaking of "lagging behind", some respected aviation publishings like Flight Global even declared China "lacks the building blocks to create a truly fifth-generation combat aircraft", before J-20 was maiden flight.

 

In that same article, one military researcher at Singapore's S Rajaratnam School was quoted saying (J-20) is bound to have a "long flight-test programme" and China's 5th gen fighter is "over a decade away".

 

All these statements were made before J-20's maiden flight in 11 Jan 2011.

Yet, within the last 4 years, Chengdu now seen testing six J-20 prototypes of various configurations and enhancements.

 

Like I wrote earlier, people need to have some reality check.

 

Long March: China’s fifth-generation fighter is years away (5 Jan 2011)

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/long-march-chinas-fifth-generation-fighter-is-years-351462/

[Ake109]

 

J-20 is being tested with AESA radar and WS-10 engine have long matured and used in J-10 fighters.

 

Relatively speaking, the technological gap is closing.

 

For e.g, compare J-20's developmental cycle of 4 years vs the F-35 of almost a decade, one cannot deny that the Chinese is catching up..

 

Well, gap is definitely closing. But I think it is like closing say from 50 years to say 20 years? Very roughly of course. Tech is not a straight line but more like some 3-D tree diagram. Some nodes China might be close but some nodes China is still way way off.

 

I think Turbofans are one of their main major weak point. They still cannot (at least what is know publicly) make _volume production_* :

 

Gas turbines for warships

Turbofans for commercial aicraft

Turbofans for military aircraft

 

As for the AESA radar, very little public infomation is available but it would be a long shot (IMHO) to think it is close in capability to whatever the US have or is using.

 

*Yes they might have cranked out some WS-10s but the question is :

 

- WS-10 is like I said, 20-30 years tech by US standards.

- No info on the service life

- Low volume trial production or are they ready for mass assembly? The amount of J-10s equipped with WS-10, any idea?

Edited May 1, 2015 by Ake109

[Nlatio]

With their capabilities, don't think they can go whack US of A.... but..... it is enough to deter US of A to come knocking at their door... They are not middle east for sure, uncle Sam can suka suka drop bomb and fly sortie...

[Wishcumstrue]

 

Well, gap is definitely closing. But I think it is like closing say from 50 years to say 20 years? Very roughly of course. Tech is not a straight line but more like some 3-D tree diagram. Some nodes China might be close but some nodes China is still way way off.

 

I think Turbofans are one of their main major weak point. They still cannot (at least what is know publicly) make _volume production_* :

 

Gas turbines for warships

Turbofans for commercial aicraft

Turbofans for military aircraft

 

I don't think it is China's responsibility to make known how far behind or the extend of advancement made.

The only reliable real-world indication we get is based on the asset they have made in both test beds and what they plan to offer to the export markets.

 

 

 

As for the AESA radar, very little public infomation is available but it would be a long shot (IMHO) to think it is close in capability to whatever the US have or is using.

 

Their AESA info, exhibit and photo were all made available to the public over 3 years ago.

http://www.asian-defence.net/2012/01/chinese-aesa-radar-development-for-j.html

 

AESA on J-10B testbed (photo 2011)

 

[Ake109]

 

I don't think it is China's responsibility to make known how far behind or the extend of advancement made.

The only reliable real-world indication we get is based on the asset they have made in both test beds and what they plan to offer to the export markets.

 

 

 

Their AESA info, exhibit and photo were all made available to the public over 3 years ago.

http://www.asian-defence.net/2012/01/chinese-aesa-radar-development-for-j.html

 

AESA on J-10B testbed (photo 2011)

 

 

They dont have to tell the world, but in the absence of evidence, there is no real foundation for assuming they have actually caught up in turbofans or come close. Their WS-10 is in very limited production and they are still buying Russian engines. And their latest warships are still not powered by domestic turbines.

 

Yes it is known they have AESA but my point was that it would be a long stretch to assume its capabilities would be close to what the US has.

[Wishcumstrue]

 

They dont have to tell the world, but in the absence of evidence, there is no real foundation for assuming they have actually caught up in turbofans or come close. Their WS-10 is in very limited production and they are still buying Russian engines. And their latest warships are still not powered by domestic turbines.

 

Yes it is known they have AESA but my point was that it would be a long stretch to assume its capabilities would be close to what the US has.

 

That is precisely that "absence of evidence" that lead many to assume that China's development is far behind as in the case of J-20 which the US had predicted should not have existed until beyond 2020.

 

As already mentioned, the WS-10 itself isn't just "limited produciton", it is in operation to power not only J-10B, but also wide range of assets including navy's J-11 and a/f J15 and J16 heavier twin engine fighters.

 

Now if the realibility and production rate are in question, PLA won't have allowed such powerplant to be used in its growing fleet of 3rd and 4th fighters.

 

 

[Wishcumstrue]

4 years on, Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group has move to testing its latest prototype iteration "2015".

 

This one has cropped canards and vertical stabilisers, a modified air intake, modified wing leading-edge extensions, and a new electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) under the nose.

 

It also no longer spot the usual nose-mounted pitot tubes, has longer and sharper-shaped rear-fuselage horizontal strakes, and like the "2011" version, has lighter ghost grey paint scheme..

 

This version which was first observed flying on Dec 2014, seems to indicate the final layout and configuration with mass production expected to peak from 2017/18.

 

 

 

 

Photo of a previously unknown J-20 was released during its maiden flight on early this month on 18 Sep.

 

This makes No.2016 the 7th prototype known publicly. Minor changes are like the DSI intake and tail section compare to No.2015 were observed. These smaller "refinements" shows the J-20 in now in final stage, a clear indication that mass production will commence within next 2 years.

 

Interestingly, No.2016 first flight falls on the Anniversay of Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931 which lead to 2nd Sino-Japanese war in 1937 and ultimately to WW2 in Asia Pacific.

 

More than a coincidence, I say.

 

 

 

 

[Little_prince]

then call them tiongs can or not? lol

 

In the uk, us and australia, i have been called a CHINK by whites, blacks and latinos. I guess the words "made in singapore" wasn't stamped on my forehead. If i looked like a chink, ate chink food and spoke chink language, that made me a chink by definition. Ok, it is their country, not mine, so i had nothing to say.

However I never thought that i would still be called a chink back here in asia, better still, in singapore where i was born.